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[Junta]

Interesting point Mark.

They've changed demo to be a more useful tool in 6 v 6 I think. When a demo is alone, he's more vulnerable. I for one always feel more naked in matches than I do in pubs. The risk of being scouted to death is much higher in competition.

I suspect that Valve can't have it both ways. Make the demo powerful so he can stand in competition, but then give him a significant edge (with a suitably skilled player of course) in pub play.

IMHO ... the better demo men seem to be using sticky bombs, it is the inability to avoid these and coupled with delayed fire that makes demo men like Cheez harder to counter in pub games. This gets worse when there are multiple enemies.

As always, it needs a change in tactics. This can be painful as I am learning with Heavy.. but it is a challenge that I enjoy none the less. Nothing easy is ever that rewarding.

I play demo from time to time... I think that Valve's history of "nerfing" would not be a good change.

All this however, is based on the WDG server experience, where we have class limits. I hate to think what it is like in general pub play with no limits in place.

[TheBeau]

Don't forget the demoman takes >1 second to reload 1 round, is the 3rd slowest class, has no hitscan weapon, cannot juggle effectively, is vulnerable at short range, takes a lot of self-damage, has no reliable escape mechanism (sticky jumps hurt ), requires a different kind of aim than any other class and requires a lot more support than you think.

Finally, the demoman is the only class which really requires strong and clear planning. A mistake will kill you. (There are several stupid demomen who can aim but have terrible gamesense --> me)

In return, he has the biggest damage output of any class. Fair in my opinion.

But I'd rather have a medic than a good demoman anyday :/

[Chaos]

lol nah, demo is op

[Cheez]

I've always thought that: 6v6 - Demo is op but so is scout, so demo isn't overpowered just solly is underpowered
Public - Demo is op

[Chaos]

can haz solly buff pleeeeeeeeeeeeeese

[Junta]

Don't forget the demoman takes >1 second to reload 1 round, is the 3rd slowest class, has no hitscan weapon, cannot juggle effectively, is vulnerable at short range, takes a lot of self-damage, has no reliable escape mechanism (sticky jumps hurt ), requires a different kind of aim than any other class and requires a lot more support than you think.

All good points, well made.

Finally, the demoman is the only class which really requires strong and clear planning. A mistake will kill you.

Disagree a little. I've always said that Heavy is a thinking class - planning your moves to maximise damage caused and survival

In return, he has the biggest damage output of any class. Fair in my opinion.

Yes - there has to be this kind of class in the game and, yes he can be countered.

I just think the demo is easier to battle against in competition than in manic pubs. This may seem very ignorant, because in matches you get the better standard of demo man. However, I offer evidence in that matches have more organised tactics and the demo man has fewer places to hide behind a sea of team mates. What I am saying here is that people are more careful about attacking in matches, and this makes it harder for the demo to rampage (although I admit that a good demo can still do this of course). Also, the map choice in pubs favours demo men - some stages of Dustbowl are spam heaven for a demo yet you'd never (?) see that map used in competition.

I play demo on pubs and feel much more comfortable surrounded by 10-11 team mates. Makes it much easier to kill with pipes and stickies. I find demo terrifying to play in matches tbh

[Power]

I spam stuff aimlessly. People die. Case closed. (not a real arguement, just remembering similar arguments in the heavy discussion)

[Hzza]

Also, the map choice in pubs favours demo men - some stages of Dustbowl are spam heaven for a demo yet you'd never (?) see that map used in competition.

Fun factoid - Aparently there was a probowl version that was used in one of the ESEA NA leagues once upon a time I think. AFAIK the first 2 stages were normal but the last point on stage 3 was heavily modified. I don't think it was that popular though.

[Cheez]

Fun factoid - Normal dustbowl used to be used quite regularly back in the day

[Power]

That's not fun factoids, you geeks. Fun facts are like this: If elephants could jump, they would break all of their legs on landing. (my guess is, they learned this the hard way and it is now genetically programmed into their behaviour not to jump).

[Cheez]

Lol, that is a more fun factoid!

[TheBeau]

Finally, the demoman is the only class which really requires strong and clear planning. A mistake will kill you.

Disagree a little. I've always said that Heavy is a thinking class - planning your moves to maximise damage caused and survival

Yea but you have 300hp, a shotgun (reliable weapon) and are pretty much immune to being juggled plus ammo management consists of looking at the bottom right and seeing a number. if it's a small number go get ammo, if not keep going.

Walking into house in badlands for instance will not get you killed as a heavy. If you are a demoman a soldier will fire two rockets at you whilst you shoot a pipe into the ceiling.

That's what I mean by planning, a Heavy can push places on his own relatively safely. The demoman can't go anywhere where he is ineffective, because his foremost positive trait is his effectiveness.

[Zarf]

Can't say I agree with that, if you bust into the house and meet a solly/demo coming the other way, you're toast - can't outdps them and you're too slow to escape the spam radius if you try and retreat, whereas they can retreat round a convenient corner and pop out to spam you at their leisure.

Your only hope is to come round a corner spinning and hope to catch an injured player waiting for the medipack.

[TheBeau]

You don't need to out dps them if you have 300hp :/

You might not kill a soldier/demo in house, but you shouldn't die either.

[Junta]

Disagree beau. Heavy is hard work and most solly and demos will grind you quickly these days. Direct hit is a big problem for heavies too. Those hit points quickly go. Just try heavy against cheex.