next »

[Please Support Us!]

Please Support Us!

Please help keep (=WDG=) alive

• Server rules
• Forum rules
• Join us
  
• Clan members
• About the clan
• Server stats
• WDG YouTube Channel
• WDG Downloads
• IRC Webchat

Steam groups:

• WDG community
• WDG clan group
• WDG Battlelog Platoon

Our allies:

• [NuB] TF2 clan
• Velocity Gamers Hub
• Destination Gamer

GoG Links:

• Wix Discord
• Wix IRC channel

TF2 Links:

• Official TF2 Blog
• TF2 Steam Forum
• The Fort 2

October 2025

Mo	Tu	We	Th	Fr	Sa	Su
		1	2	3	4	5
6	7	8	9	10	11	12
13	14	15	16	17	18	19
20	21	22	23	24	25	26
27	28	29	30	31
	Birthdays
Uzz919 (29), FlowingEye (36), Karthus (35)
	Upcoming Events
Upcoming Birthdays: Uzz919 (29), FlowingEye (36), Karthus (35)

[Brahms]

I think that the arguments about people who've played too much and got all the good guns ruining fun are very valid, though I sort of think that is partly a game balance issue. Me and disco actually had a very difficult time last night in RO2 vs some high level guys. The teams were quite low (not helped by the two high level guys rolling whatever team they were on) and RO2 does give distinct, actual unlocks to people who've played longer (As in they will literally be 5% more accurate or whatever, disco will know the actual numbers)

One thing though that I think unlocks help with is the quite large complexity in modern games. Just like in an SP game you won't be given all the toys to begin wiht because you'll get confused, so too in an MP game you can be gradually drip fed items/guns/perks to help avoid being overwhelmed and encourage you to use a variety of items. Although it's annoying to start off completely gimped for the first stages of the game, they can be seen as an (annoyingly unskippable) tutorial.

[r007]

I wonder how situations like the HoN/LoL dilemma come to be (and also why DOTA style games are prominently plagued by it...)?

Is it because of the high skill ceiling? I acknowledge you can be so much better if you've memorized the timings and combos of buttonmashing in DOTA to perfection. Or is it even a bad consequence of the well-intended level based player matching? (i.e. giving high-skill players an opportunity to troll legitimate noobs?) How would you counter this? Performance-Based matching?

Does anyone have an exmple of a game that does allow multiple characters at no extra cost, has a level matching system, and is not plagued by smurfing? (I'm thinking an RPG PvP Arena thing, but can't seem tho think of one right now...)

[DeadlyAvenger]

The WvW in Guild Wars 2 does it by making all of the players the maximum level (level 80) so you should be on a relatively even playing field. I guess it's not really a 'level matching system' as it's not playing people against each other of similar skill/experience - rather making sure that new players can have the same experience.

[r007]

I explicitly didn't mention GW2 WvW because it sort of turns the whole concept upside down (probably with good results, too) — rather than fencing off low level players, it opens up high level content to them without the intermediate grind. Which begs the question, is level based matching as we know it from LoL broken by design?

[DeadlyAvenger]

Only when it's free to create an unlimited number of smurf accounts etc.

When a person can only have one account (e.g. Starcraft 2 - because that game is still freaking expensive) and can only play with that one account (thus removing/reducing the number smurfs) then it gives the matchmaking system a chance to assess your skill level and match you with players accordingly.

The only way for the matchmaking system to work, is to only allow a person to create/play with one account. If they want to create a new account - then they must transfer their old account to the new one or something.

[Karthus]

For matchmaking to work you need a playerbase. SMNCs matchmaking is absolut shit right now because theres only like 500 people left who play this. Dota 2 back when it was very closed beta also had very long queuetimes and pretty bad onesided games, but it has panned out over time, now you usually get opponents with similiar stats.

Funny that you mention GW2 Deadly, it does put you on equal levels, but equipment still plays a deciding factor there, so I wouldnt list that as an example. I think Bloodline Champions is one of the fairest games out there actually because theres no runes/masteries/skilltrees, just plain 3v3/5v5 Arena WoW-Style. Since its F2P, my beforementioned problem still applys though.

I wouldnt say that levelbased matchmaking as a concept is broken, it is very well needed in games like League of Legends or DotA, it goes one step further with Elorating or MMR in HoN. The more factors you throw in to determine a fair match, the fairer it gets (in theory)

[Brahms]

Level based matchmaking works fine in Chess. There are good algorithms for it, it seems like the problem is the playerbase, both in variety and honesty.

Taking the convo back to unlocks, it seems difficult to be sure that the guy with the l33t gear is pwning you only because he's unlocked the stuff. People who have put a lot of hours into the game also tend to be very good at it, equipment aside. Again, me and disco getting flattened by the RO2 guys last night. They had better gear, but they were probably also a lot better than us, what then?

I guess that raises the question of positive balancing, things like CoD kill streaks and the way LoL games can be decided in a couple minutes. What do people think about that?

[discordance]

Level based matchmaking works fine in Chess. There are good algorithms for it, it seems like the problem is the playerbase, both in variety and honesty.

Using video game terms isn't chess more akin to ranking or SC2 leagues. Level in a lot of games is just an arbitrary amount of accumulated experience and not skill. You could play as many games of chess as a grandmaster and still suck at chess.

[CruelCow]

One thing though that I think unlocks help with is the quite large complexity in modern games. Just like in an SP game you won't be given all the toys to begin wiht because you'll get confused, so too in an MP game you can be gradually drip fed items/guns/perks to help avoid being overwhelmed and encourage you to use a variety of items. Although it's annoying to start off completely gimped for the first stages of the game, they can be seen as an (annoyingly unskippable) tutorial.

In theory an unlock system could work like that. In practice you always get stuff the fastest at the beginning and then slower and slower, so the opposite than it should be for an ideal learning experience.

[Brahms]

Sorry disco, I meant the chess ranking system. Chess doesn't have a levels system, just ranks.

[r007]

I don't have the money to throw at it, but were I to buy every unlock in Tribes Ascend, would I have an advantage? I know there's some unlocks that would allow me to play classes a different style, maybe something that better suited me. (And my rubbish aim...)

Assuming all weapons are roughly balanced (i.e. there's no gamebreaking pay2win outliers in the equipment system), unlocks in general should be fine, right?

[Berath]

GW2 sounds similar to The Secret World in that respect.

TSW doesn't have levels and calls itself a level-free game where everyone is at end-game straight off, but it does use equipment levelling. You start off with QL0 gear (Quality Level) and progressively get higher QL stuff. You need to have equipment of a certain QL before you can attempt certain content.

It's still early days for PvP at the moment, but from what I hear, it is gear dependent and if you attempt it with lower quality gear you will suffer, so it's the same problem. However, often in MMO PVP is seems that players don't attempt it until they have the appropriate gear/are at the appropriate level.

In LoTRO we had player vs monster. You could monster play from about level 10 but were automatically made up to level 50. Players could theoretically start at level 45 but you were playing to get stomped if you did (at that time level 50 was max level).

And is there anything for people who find it difficult to hit one moving dot with another dot in Tribes Ascend?

(it's a shame about SMNC..I logged on a while back and saw the queue was about 4mins)

[Karthus]

Almost Every MMO has geardependant PvP. I liked WoWs approach of having a seperate server just for Arenateams where they could buy every gearpiece they wanted for free, it made it kindof like a cardgame where you can build your own set. On real servers youll have to grind for your gear.

[Berath]

I don't see any way round it.

You gate-keep (only allow entry after a certain level) or you can enter at any level but need to accept that you need to grind and be at a disadvantage whilst you do so.....

[Brahms]

What would people say if FPS games had a similar sort of gating?