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Brahms
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2012, 12:30:29 PM »

If when I die, I don't think "Oh I'd like to try that again" then I won't play it and will just consider it rubbish.

You can lose an insane amount of stuff in Dark Souls (dark souls is such a great game in regards to all this fun/difficulty talk actually, dunno who here has played it and don't want to spoiler anything at all for people) but the game is great so whilst it hurts, it doesn't matter because playing is fun.
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2012, 12:39:14 PM »


I would say to Berath though that the default weapons in BF3 are still the best guns. Ask disco, he rages about it everytime we play.


A thousand times yes. The m16 is extremely annoying. The default snipers fairly good autosnipers and good for new players. Support has good clip based lmgs and the m27 is just a big AR. M4a1 for americans is the same bullshit as the m16, although the russian aksu is a bit shitty.

Berath and chug you both seem to be talking about soloing bf. Even I struggle and often don't have fun with it solo. Its a team game you need to be willing to get on mumble and get carried by your squad a bit, like LoL but less painful. The only disadvantages are a couple of squad perks which take awhile to get but a lot of them just add a bit more ammo. Should not take too long to get the hang of infantry combat.

And vehicles. Vehicles are probably the most unfriendly part of the game for new players but you can unlock smoke pretty quickly (which is for a lot of things the only defence you need starting out). You can also level up your vehicles by simply gunning or riding with someone. You can watch how that person plays and uses their unlocks and unlock stuff yourself. You could learn the basics of a vehicle and get a good number of unlocks in an evening, and theres only 6 or so vehicle classes (plus a few transports).

BF3 is also still full of plenty of new players, especially on the scan servers I play on, which shuffles the teams heavily.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 12:42:20 PM by discordance » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2012, 12:40:12 PM »

If they made lol somehow sympathetic to new players then it would not be anything like it currently is, that is the nature of the game and it becomes very rewarding when you learn most item builds, skill builds, champ abilities.

However I still disagree to some of the changes they made to the game from dota. No denies forces you to just last hit, makes supporting boring :CCC means you have to run a jungler or be at a disadvantage of not being able to deny xp in a 2v1 top lane. No tp scroll makes a more passive game, boring. Jungling isn't improved imo from dota at all, requiring runes and pulls (at the start) to jungle is not simpler at all (runes are kinda dumb too). Also the fact that in lol it is always bruiser top, ap mid and ad carry with support bot, why is this.

There are improvements as well such as the level system instead of always played ranked games which seem to bring out the worst in people, the shop is somewhat better but they really need to add the option to create your own recommended build.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 12:42:37 PM by Rct33 » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2012, 01:02:56 PM »

Also the fact that in lol it is always bruiser top, ap mid and ad carry with support bot, why is this.

This is thanks to Riots approach to Esport which has increased drastically since last year. If you look at teamcomps from last May you will see that noone gave a fuck about metagame and played the hero they wanted where they wanted, very much like in Dota (which is why I like that game alot more, people just play what they want, theres no traditional metagame in Dota).

For League it changed drastically when they streamed the Dreamhack Finals in June last year and had over 100k viewers, since then people try to play like their favourite competitive team. And over time, this has made the entire league of Legends community establish a metagame of Topbruiser, MidAP, Jungle and Duobot. Ill be honest I dont like the current metagame and Id rather have more freedom like in Dota, but it makes sense. Since Riot is designing all their new champions after the current metagame since Yorick I dont see this changing anytime soon.

There were some semi-Metagames before all this, in beta people ran duomid, also 5 AoE-Stun combination (Twisted Fate, Amumu, Fiddlesticks, Nunu and Ashe) was very popular.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 01:11:26 PM by Karthus » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2012, 06:20:15 PM »

Quote from: CruelCow
Well I miss the days where I didn't have to play for months to be on equal footing
Quote from: Brahms
Dun matter fam. If you gotta win at a game to have fun you're playing the wrong game.
At the same time running around and getting killed before you even shoot is not always the most fun
A game that sucks to lose at sucks. It's a fact.
Quote from: CruelCow
So you wouldn't mind losing against me in BEEF3 if I had double damage?
Quote from: Brahms
1) There's no double damage in beef
[...]

You misunderstood me. I'm fine with losing. (Generally speaking, I admit to getting angry when we lose "undeserved", but that's another discussion). I'm not fine with losing when I know the other guy had better stuff. I tried to exemplify that with a fictional extremely unfair unlock of double damage in BF3.

No game I know gives you that big an advantage, but how many multiplayer shooter (released in the last five years) where long time players don't have straight up better equipment can you come up with?

I got two:
UT3, which was released 4 3/4 years ago
QuakeLive which is basically Quake3

aka "oldschool" shooters

Yes, some are better about it than others.
TF2 is mostly good at the actual balance and great with the acquiring, thanks to trading.
BF3 used to be pretty bad at the actual balance, (FAMAS anyone?) but from what I heard got better at it. But it handles the acquiring horrible: If you don't pay, you cannot get the new weapons. Most F2P games got better models than that.
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« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2012, 06:28:34 PM »

Quote from: ps2 devs
We will not sell a more powerful gun or vehicle.

aka we will sell side-grade guns like tf2.

Quote from: cruelcow
A sidegrade is an upgrade!

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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2012, 06:35:31 PM »

I stand by my quote.

From what they've explained PS2 will have no unlocks that are pay-only, except cosmetics.
Will long-term/paying customers have slight advantages? You betcha, but like I've explained, if you ignore all games that do that, you can't play shooters anymore.
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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2012, 06:51:16 PM »

I really like some of the extra guns for bf3 but they are still intended to be sidegrades, most of them are good but not significantly better than the vanilla guns. I prefer the handling on say the l86a2, but for sheer op bullshit you are still better off using the pkp from the base game. Same with the ARs the m16 and the m416 and to a lesser extent the aek are the most ridiculously op guns and all from the base game. Some of the carbines are nice but i'm still favouring vanilla there too. L96 is perhaps an exception but you don't need it.

The famas on release was ridiculous but thats been nerfed so hard now its kindof useless. It sucks a bit that you have to get the dlc to have the guns but eh. You don't need to if you are happy playing on the base maps, and you can use the new guns if you pick them up. 2142 field unlocks would have been nice though to let people temp with the guns at least.

As for ps2 they've repeatedly said getting all the unlocks ever by playing won't be possible because its designed to take too much time. If they offer all the same unlocks for sale this isn't much different as the time investment to unlock all the stuff will probably be worth more than just paying for them.
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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2012, 07:44:31 PM »

I won't like the unlock system of PS2 because I don't like unlock systems, but hopefully it'll be acceptable for me. Would I prefer no unlocks in it? Yes, but I understand why they put it in. Either way, I cannot argue about it until I've seen it, so I'm not sure why you keep going back to it?

I don't get the point you're trying to make about BF3. I already said the balance is good, the acquiring method is bad.
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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2012, 07:58:11 PM »

If the only way to try out all the sidegrades in ps2 is to have all the sidegrades, which means having too much time on your hands or paying them then it reduces down to essentially the same choice as a consumer. Invest a lot of your time (valuable I hope?) or money in unknown sidegrades. If they at least offer a mechanism that lets you try them out first then that will be a superior model for that consumer than dlc weapons.

LoL would be a good example of this, by having a rotation of free champions to try for a week you know if its worth investing your time/money in them.
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Brahms
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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2012, 07:07:56 AM »

Lets change the topic to unlock systems then. They seem to basically be a modern gaming thing that isn't likely to change for a while. People complain that as they bought the game they should be able to choose whatever they want at the start, but would you make the same complaint about an RPG not giving you a fully levelled up character at the beginning of the game? Did you get annoyed in HL1 because you didn't start out with the gauss gun?
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2012, 07:20:56 AM »

Feel like a closer analogy to unlocks would be having to play one of the final levels of a shooter with only a pistol and a crowbar- if you're good then you might make some progress, at which point you start again with the next gun up. Eventually, you've got all guns and you're playing on an even field with the intended difficulty.
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2012, 07:27:01 AM »

I see, so you're saying that the problem is balance, but it's made more frustrating because you can't use the unbalanced stuff. It's a good point.

Does similar stuff happen in MMORPGs? Or do they tend to be gated by level?
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« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2012, 07:30:36 AM »

I guess that's more of an issue with games that dump you amidst long-time players when you start out. Of course you don't get mad at HL1 since the guns are a natural progression from "WTF let's just get outta here" to "I'mma bust this place up good". Same for RPGs really, where you don't complain at (for example) WoW for not being able to run endgame content at level 1. (But of course, at the maxlvl enemy guy, ganking you in the starter zone. Not because of what he has earned in terms of equip, but because he's being a dick.)
LoL is supposed to counter this by matching you up with same-level players, but that is all for naught due to the insane amount of twinking/smurfing.
If a game manages to balance the equip so well that as a beginner I'm only the learning curve away from long-time player prowess, that's ok. If someone who plays a year longer than me (just because I have this insane backlog of games I want to play) owns me every time despite my own improvements due to gear he acquired, that's another thing entirely.
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2012, 07:49:48 AM »

LoL is supposed to counter this by matching you up with same-level players, but that is all for naught due to the insane amount of twinking/smurfing.
This is an essential problem in F2P-games. When your game requires no extra fee to create an account and you have level- or skillbased matchmaking, people will just make Smurfaccounts. Happens in every game, I know of a large group of semi-good SMNC players who did this once they introduced a new-player-matchmaking-playlist.
Best example to illustrate this would be HoN. Back when it was still pay2play, only very few were desperate enough to pay another 20$ just to smash low players, as soon as it went Free2Play last August, everyone (even Beau that little rascal) created smurfaccounts. Even today the unverified-queue (As a new account you have to play there until youre playerlevel 5) is still infested with smurfs.

Now lets say Battlefield 3 (or any other overpriced Multiplayer game) had levelbased matchmaking, meaning it would put you on a server where only people of your rank would play on. It could work, because like in old HoN, only few would be desperate enough to pay another 60 Bucks just to smurf it up.
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