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[Zarf]

Is anyone else fed up with the idiocy of the student protests and the so-called "betrayal" by the Lib-Dems? Doesn't say much for the intelligence of our nations students that they can't research the full story on proposed changes and do a few simple calculations.

So the loan amount is going up, from ~3K to ~6K in most places, and to 9K for prestigious courses/places. Big Whoop - Student loans aren't like normal loans, you aren't hassled about repayments, repayments are linked to earnings so they are basically just an extra income tax. They don't even go on credit files so it doesn't affect you getting a mortgage.

So what the increased fees basically mean is that most graduates will probably be paying the loan tax back through your 30's instead of just your 20's. Many people may end up paying until the debt is forgiven after 20 years.
Now that first decade whilst your career is being established is the one where you are most likely to be having money troubles, and the fee increase makes things no harder than they currently are!
In fact they are changing the repayments system from 9% of annual income over £15K to 9% of income over £21K, which means most graduates will have an extra £540 disposable income per year!

I'm left completely baffled by all the people you see on TV going on about how they "won't be able to afford to go to university" etc when in fact this is going to make things easier for most graduates, at least for the first decade of their career. By the time they reach the second decade of their career they should be in a position where they are earning enough that the loan repayments aren't a big deal.

I knocked up a spreadsheet based on average starting salary of £25K, and a 4% year on year compound wage increase. Loan interest is taken into account and fixed at 1.5%. I assumed a current loan value of around £18000 (3 years @ 3K maintenance, 3K tuition)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aq...lIQkE&hl=en

Under current terms a 21 year old graduate with a full loan of ~18000 will be clear by the time they are 33, having made payments equal to ~4.7% of their earnings. Under the new terms a graduate won't quite have paid things off by the time it is written off after the twenty years, but crucially at that point although they have made more total repayments, as a percentage of total earnings to that point they only make up 4%
The graduate under the new terms has actually made less total repayments all the way up until his late 30's, at which point he or she is earning close to 50K/year and hardly struggling.

As for "fairness" any graduates with lower paying jobs are significantly better off, since they would be making payments for the full 20 years under the current system anyway - the new system means they'll have an extra £540 per year. Even with interest somebody starting at £20K will actually have paid back less over the 20 years than a current graduate with an £18K loan who paid it off immediately.

Now I could understand if they were campaigning to scrap fees completely, but a little maths and time shows that protesting the changes as they are is more than ridiculous - It's stupid. The only people who are really worse off are graduates getting really good salaries, hardly protest worthy.

I've no idea why the coalition isn't doing more to publicise the £15k - £21K change anyway, that's the significant part, it completely overshadows the fee rises and turns it into a radically different situation. Guess they weren't counting on the stupidity of people. A far better strategy would have been "we're abolishing Tuition fees, but introducing a 20 year tax for university attendants of 2% over £21000 for every year of attendance". The economics of that work out pretty much the same. It has it's own pitfalls to make it less fair than a Loan system, but at least it would have been much harder to spin against them than "broken election promises".

[Leftism]

It's probably too difficult to explain to students.

Plus the media seem more interested in the protests themselves rather than the reasons behind it  and whether the world cup draw was fixed.

[TheBeau]

You know it's 30 years under this new plan, right?

Because it is. As amazing as nearly half of my life being full of debt is, somehow I'd prefer to be in the clear at 33 then 51.

[discordance]

my loan total for 2 degrees is like £12k, its naffink. Either way its an economic change suggested by tories therefore I choose to just shout about how stupid they are etc.

University is totally free in sweden to all EU residents (you can go too), to me this is taxes in the wrong place, especially with >50% uni attendance now. I don't think its so much that the repayments would actually be incredibad, just we are seeing the typical tory approach to economics, tax easing for the rich (bankers/big corps etc) and fuck everybody else. None of this is actually about public benefit or cutting national deficit its just willy waving and party policy.

What I do think is far worse though is the funding cuts made to arts and humanities, pretty sure some of my schools have had to close intakes and the whole faculty will fold if things don't change.

Also this thread is politics and noones going to agree so er lock maybe?

[Zarf]

You know it's 30 years under this new plan, right?

Because it is. As amazing as nearly half of my life being full of debt is, somehow I'd prefer to be in the clear at 33 then 51.

Ah cheers, missed that. Still, my point stands that it's better to make smaller payments, especially during your youth, and then make it up when you're earning the big bucks and barely miss it.
At 33 in the current scheme, yes you'd have paid off all 20K or so debt, but at the same age in the proposed scheme you'd have only had to make 12K worth of payments.

just we are seeing the typical tory approach to economics, tax easing for the rich (bankers/big corps etc) and fuck everybody else. None of this is actually about public benefit or cutting national deficit its just willy waving and party policy.

Where exactly is the tax easing for the rich? They aren't putting any extra limits on bonuses themselves (all this would achieve is the bankers moving abroad and the death of London as a finance capital), but they have increased regulation and oversight on the banks to prevent situations like the one we've just had, and introduced a levy on them. In addition Tax credits for the highest earners are scrapped and Capital Gains tax is increased.
On the other end of the spectrum the personal allowance limit for income tax is being raised to 10K, which will mean another £700 in most peoples pockets (Highest tier tax bands are lowered so the highest earners don't benefit from this)

People are giving them a bad rep, like with the tuition fees changes you can see that quite apart from boosting the rich and screwing the poor they are infact making life significantly easier for lower earners and slightly harder for higher earners.  Considering the scale of the deficit reduction task Labour dumped on them I think they've been very fair.

[discordance]

theyve utterly destroyed benefits, my friend who is unable to work because of treatment has now lost all her benefits. They deserve their bad rep. The ill/elderly etc now get nothing when the same money could have been generated from a minor tax on the upper end of income tax etc. The tax easing for the rich is the lack of taking money from those who can afford it and choosing instead the vulnerable

[Tommy the Cat]

When I was a student, most of my time was spent finding ways to avoid doing any work. That's all these buggers are doing.

My opinion on the issue? Well I'm finished now and I don't care. Lib dems aren't even in power, they just make the tea.

[Junta]

I hate political threads *sigh* ....

BUT while I'm here, I don't agree with tuition fee hikes for the following reasons:

1) Starting your life with debt (regardless of when or how you pay) sucks.
2) People will now be more wary about taking slightly higher paid (but important) jobs as stepping stones to the real higher paid jobs. We'll suffer gaps in industry etc (regardless of the mathematical point that you make Zarf).
3) There is disparity about fees in Scotland and Wales, it comes down to fairness and England being more expensive is not fair.
4) I don't agree with student riots, but they have a point in regards to political promises being broken. I'm angry and I didn't even vote Lib Dem!
5) I also hate the fact that the orignal fee legislation for England was forced through by *Scottish* MP's, who should have abstained in the vote as it had no effect on their own constituents. Infuriating and unfair given that they'd just voted for a different fee system in their own country.
6) I'd prefer to see higher taxes and less burden on students, but that's just me. Saying that education is important and then undermining everything seems crappy to me!

AND for the record, I enjoyed FREE uni fees and paid my own way for everything else. Didn't have any debt to speak off hanging round my neck, I'd have hated it.

[e90]

I feel bad for students... for the ones that want to get a useful degree they can use and which will help their career.

I have absolutely no sympathy for students who want to go to uni to get something they 'want to do'.

My sisters friends were all straight A students, they went to Uni and got degrees in what I believe to be semi legit careers.  Four years after uni they work in Boots, a library and one is hugging trees.  The government basically paid for four intelligent girls to study for four years so they do can fuck all with it. This is my big problem.

When I went to uni I was surrounded by people using uni as a way to avoid getting a job.  I'm pissed off that they were getting four years with free fucking everything to do cooking, or business graphics business with international travel... wtf !!!   Don't get me wrong, becoming a chef... or doing international grphics in business or whatever are important positions... but they are not university material, they are not academic. I'll be honest my degree wasn't amazing (Computing) but thats my uni's fault for designing a shit degree, it should have been harder.

Fucking lazy free loaders make it bad, and stop the real academics, the intelligent people from going on and getting it free (which they should).

For the record I don't believe I should have gone to uni, my grades weren't high enough, I never tried, messed around, came out of A levels with D D E, no uni should allow that... don't get me wrong I won't refuse to go on principal, but I should not have been allowed in.  Another problem, any Tom Dick or Harry can get to uni to do something (one uni somewhere will take you for something).

My dads idea, which I fully support...

Each year the government look at the economy, they look at where we will be in 5-10 years time, they assess which professionals they think we will need.  The government then pays for the tuition for these degrees.  So if we are short on doctors, then for 5 years going to uni to do medicine will be free.  If there is no demand in "cheese tasting with business and politics" then that degree should be covered by the student, as its something they want (not paid in cash, do the loans, it should be accessible to all students, but not at the cost of the government).

This way Govt saves money, lazy people stop taking random crap, and the useful careers, the position that we NEED as a county will get filled quicker as its a more attractive option for students.

[Leftism]

I hate political threads *sigh* ...

I could make one moaning at length about how the £8bn investment into the rail network could've been used better and made more money in return for you, John. :-3

[Junta]

@ E90... nice idea, but I don't have faith in governments to correctly foresee what skills they might need next week let alone next year. They've cut the armed forces down even though we're actively engaged ffs!

@Lefty.. I ignored your provocation!

[aquila]

Each year the government look at the economy, they look at where we will be in 5-10 years time, they assess which professionals they think we will need.

So no chance of ppe at oxford being free - they just go on to be politicians. 

[Leftism]

@Lefty.. I ignored your provocation!

Awww... D:

[mode_seven]

Also this thread is politics and noones going to agree so er lock maybe?

If people don't continue to keep a level head it will be locked. Keep calm chaps.

[Millicent Bystander]

My sister when to uni at Bristol, got a Physics degree and has never worked since, my dad went to uni (to Cambridge no less), got a degree and had a very successful and socially productive career designing roads and bridges (and telling the gritters where and when to go).

When I was on my training course for my new job quite a few of the people there had just got a degree and not been able to find any "proper" degree jobs.

I've never done any higher education, been working (with hugely varying jobs and pay levels) since I was 16 as I never really got on with the academic system (I blame Thatcher).  Maree and I have our own house, 2 cars, a good standard of living jobs that we enjoy, even if we aren't as well paid as if we'd got degrees.