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[Brahms]

There actually hasn't been an update that has caused me to change my game much, most of the time the return to normalcy is just caused by people not using the items any more.

Not sure how Wrangler makes engie any more vulnerable to spies though. Surely he's less vulnerable because he can spy check with it and doesn't need to spend all his time repairing things?

[discordance]

you need to play other classes more dude you'd see the weaknesses more easily. He can only spy check by shooting randomly which rapidly depletes it and forces him to deactivate and restock which seems to take longer as well, and his attention is more divided, he has to judge when to jump off to repair stuff. With auto sentry you just run at whatevers bleeping and you can if paying attention ensure a spy has a difficult time getting behind you. But the most vulnerable point now is when the engi is shooting someone else. You don't even need to be a spy to get the jump on him then, his sentry isn't auto anymore so if he doesn't see you, you can get right on top of him.

[mode_seven]

I meant that in general. It also shouldn't take a demo 8 (9?) stickies to kill it.

as has already been said you need to take the engi down, brute forcing his sentry is not the best choice.

Stand back, I'm going to try SCIENCE MATHS!

A Level 3 Sentry gun has 280 HP¹. The Wrangler absorbs 66% of incoming damage.

This means that we need to deal 840 points of damage to destroy the sentry, assuming it doesn't have another engineer repairing it.

The base Sticky Bomb damage is 120, falling off by 1% every 2.88 units².

Assuming we're going to try and destroy this sentry in a single explosion, we want each of our Sticky bombs to deal 804 / 8 = 105. This is less than 12.5% ((105-120)/120) damage fall off, in other words less than 36 hammer units away. This is roughly the height of a crouched character in Source³.

So, we've ascertained it's possible.

But, this is assuming several points:

• Nobody has noticed us laying this Sticky Trap, and therefore has not tried to attack us.
• If we are ubered (most likely necessary), no pyro/soldier/demoman has tried to push us away.
• No pyro/soldier/demoman has tried to push the stickies away, and no scout/soldier/pyro/heavy/engineer/sniper/spy has shot and removed our stickies.
• Our aim was good enough even before this that all stickies lay within one crouched characters distance of the Sentry Gun. Considering we are likely to either a) be aiming round a corner and not have a direct view or b) be under the influence of an uber and under heavy enemy attrition, this is extremely unlikely.
• We've had enough time for our Sticky Bombs to arm, 0.92 seconds².

Some of these numbers are simplified for calculation: there's other factors that are incredibly difficult to account for, but the basic point of this is that you now definitely have to kill the goddamn engineer first!

[discordance]

killing the engi first was always the best way, only difference now is the other way is really really shitty.

[egg]

I meant that in general. It also shouldn't take a demo 8 (9?) stickies to kill it.

as has already been said you need to take the engi down, brute forcing his sentry is not the best choice.

Stand back, I'm going to try SCIENCE MATHS!

A Level 3 Sentry gun has 280 HP¹. The Wrangler absorbs 66% of incoming damage.

This means that we need to deal 840 points of damage to destroy the sentry, assuming it doesn't have another engineer repairing it.

The base Sticky Bomb damage is 120, falling off by 1% every 2.88 units².

Assuming we're going to try and destroy this sentry in a single explosion, we want each of our Sticky bombs to deal 804 / 8 = 105. This is less than 12.5% ((105-120)/120) damage fall off, in other words less than 36 hammer units away. This is roughly the height of a crouched character in Source³.

So, we've ascertained it's possible.

But, this is assuming several points:

• Nobody has noticed us laying this Sticky Trap, and therefore has not tried to attack us.
• If we are ubered (most likely necessary), no pyro/soldier/demoman has tried to push us away.
• No pyro/soldier/demoman has tried to push the stickies away, and no scout/soldier/pyro/heavy/engineer/sniper/spy has shot and removed our stickies.
• Our aim was good enough even before this that all stickies lay within one crouched characters distance of the Sentry Gun. Considering we are likely to either a) be aiming round a corner and not have a direct view or b) be under the influence of an uber and under heavy enemy attrition, this is extremely unlikely.
• We've had enough time for our Sticky Bombs to arm, 0.92 seconds².

Some of these numbers are simplified for calculation: there's other factors that are incredibly difficult to account for, but the basic point of this is that you now definitely have to kill the goddamn engineer first!

But the engi has lost the power of auto aim.... if hes a crap shot anyone can take him out

[CruelCow]

A demo directly in front of the sentry isn't hard to hit, and once you've started hitting him, autolock and knockback makes really easy to keep on hitting.

And while you should kill the engi first, very often this isn't easy. Smart engis hide behind the sentries (especially during übers where aim isn't that important), where every überbuddy except the demo has a very slim chance of getting him. And let's not even begin to talk about sentries to which you have to run to first in order to get in range!

Also, as far as I've seen, you can repair & wrangle without having to wait 3 seconds to regain control.

[discordance]

A demo directly in front of the sentry isn't hard to hit, and once you've started hitting him, autolock and knockback makes really easy to keep on hitting.

And while you should kill the engi first, very often this isn't easy. Smart engis hide behind the sentries (especially during übers where aim isn't that important), where every überbuddy except the demo has a very slim chance of getting him. And let's not even begin to talk about sentries to which you have to run to first in order to get in range!

Also, as far as I've seen, you can repair & wrangle without having to wait 3 seconds to regain control.

If we see any nerfs I expect what we will see is the 3 second downtime being enforced there as well so its 3 seconds before auto and before you can resume control.

[mandl]

So the question remains now that the (ex)demolition guy cant take down a wrangled sentry whats the solution ? more spies ? more snipers ? oh the horror oh the turtling whats it like against pyros ??
Has anyone tried this yet ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDtj3e7dZ_c&feature=player_embedded

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qN4UgRrs90&feature=player_embedded

[discordance]

the second video is garbage hes got low gravity on or something, so I dunno what hes saying other than haha with god mode and low grav i can do some crap jumps with the sentry?

As for sentry rocket jumps i've done them, i'm not good enough yet to grab the sentry as I go up but my solution is to just drop a tele exit and then teleport with my sentry.

[Captain Valentine]

The easiest way is to just hold right click and switch to your wrench as the missiles fly out, but if you do it too early you grab the sentry and it fires a missile as soon as you put it back down, before it's fully deployed.

[Brahms]

It's not easy to kill the engie when he has a friend that has 840HP, two miniguns and a rocket launcher to hide behind.

I might start playing spy, but spy is so gimped lately that I don't see it going well.

[Teatime]

Also, as far as I've seen, you can repair & wrangle without having to wait 3 seconds to regain control.

Yes, you can switch to wrench, quickly hit it one or two times to restock/repair, then switch back to be in business again. But that actually doesn't bother me. What should be addressed is that the shield is only fading slowly so the enemy might not be aware that the sg is vulnerable.

[CruelCow]

During that repair break, is the sentry protected or not?
Because like you said, the shield is there until the sentry gets concious again.

[Teatime]

During that repair break, is the sentry protected or not?
Because like you said, the shield is there until the sentry gets concious again.

Not really tested, but I assume it is no longer protected and already in the 3 seconds inactive state.
Valve really should either immediately make the shield disappear or at least change color (e.g. a pale yellow) to clearly mark the inactive state.

[DeadlyAvenger]

During that repair break, is the sentry protected or not?
Because like you said, the shield is there until the sentry gets concious again.

Not really tested, but I assume it is no longer protected and already in the 3 seconds inactive state.
Valve really should either immediately make the shield disappear or at least change color (e.g. a pale yellow) to clearly mark the inactive state.

The sentry does tilt down while it's inactive (oh...and obviously it won't shoot at you )