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[Junta]

If you liked Naked Gun... you need to see the original series that it's based on.... Police Squad


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8PZFQz-qmo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOr-1OVHNac&feature=related


Now..I've de-railed.

Lets try to ignore me and get back on topic!

[Teatime]

Here ye go

A bit of a mess, to be honest. Went through several drafts and was eventually so eager to be done with it that I haven't polished it up properly  Also went (again) overboard in length, so it's split into two parts (part 2 following tomorrow).
One of these days I might have to learn to condense my thoughts

TL:DR (1)
The engy needs:
- Better adaption for sentries to compensate for increased possibilities of heavy attacks
- Tools for some spy detection
- Slightly better weaponry to fight spies

You can see in this boiled down summary how revolutionary my considerations have been  

[Magathery]

All the updates so far have been sacrifice for gain. So less area of effect on splash damage, for faster projectile kind of thing. Or slower rate of fire for crit on hit. So what will the engineer have to sacrifice to get a new thing? No shot gun = sarnie, for the heavy. the backburner has no compression blast. All I can envission for the engineer involes more costs to build or longer to build. I'm kinda curious as to how this will pan out.

[discordance]

well theyve said the new buildings will either be upgrades or extra buildings. If it ends up with new buildings the sacrifice is pulling your hair out managing even more buildings and a big increase in metal cost.

[Teatime]

And part 2 if I may ...

[CruelCow]

You keep aiming against spies with your updates.
IMHO the engi doesn't need help against spies. Good engis are next to impossible to beat without a coordinated diversion from teammates. Have a single teammate devoted to spy-prevention and the sentry is unsappable.
And yes, I do agree I have a very, very biased point of view about this.

[Teatime]

You keep aiming against spies with your updates.

As I tried to point out the new weapons/items have strengthened the spy's position to some degree. And while a coordinated effort from the team can still help the engy it's still difficult, especially on more dynamic maps like 5-CP. Not to mention that "coordinated effort" rarely describes a pub game accurately. And while I'm not the world's best engy I feel the relation between spy and engy is a bit off-balance and requires some correction.
But I'll freely admit that I am biased, too

[scroggage]

You keep aiming against spies with your updates.
IMHO the engi doesn't need help against spies. Good engis are next to impossible to beat without a coordinated diversion from teammates. Have a single teammate devoted to spy-prevention and the sentry is unsappable.
And yes, I do agree I have a very, very biased point of view about this.

Nevertheless one that I agree with, good sir.

[egg]

You keep aiming against spies with your updates.
IMHO the engi doesn't need help against spies. Good engis are next to impossible to beat without a coordinated diversion from teammates. Have a single teammate devoted to spy-prevention and the sentry is unsappable.
And yes, I do agree I have a very, very biased point of view about this.

Nevertheless one that I agree with, good sir.

I play engi and spy, and tbh if i had the choice for a one on one match, i'd go for engi. 

He needs help against:-

1) stronger and groups of classes: a buffed heavy is strong enough to take the force of an sg almost by himself, and with sollys and others to back him an sg is down in seconds
2) As valve have rightly said, make him more dynamic and able to leave his nest by more than just a few metres.

[Junta]

I think that the #1 enemy of the engineer is no longer the spy. Direct hit and demo man are able to do much more damage at range - I've not seen many sentries last long these days (or their engineer). Let's face it, traveling in secret to an engineer without being detected, lining up a backstab and sap with a pyro near you is much too hard work compared to getting a direct hit rocket launcher and nailing the SG in a few seconds (and probably the engineer too).

The spy has had his buff, and for a while it was very effective. I still get killed by the spy who is determined to take me out no matter the cost, but I'm not sure what has happened lately. I guess "he who must not be named" - Scr*gg*ge is away so my back feels slightly better.... On a more serious note, Cruela is right, if you stick a pyro buddy on an engineer he becomes massively difficult to take down. The best that a spy can hope for (and I do respect the players like CruelCow who do this) is to sap during an attack and buy time for a heavier class to nail a sentry gun. Other than that, some of the best spy work I've seen lately has been on medics and snipers - nice

I personally think that the dead ringer needs lots of cunning to use well. Most spies I see now make elementary mistakes (like running straight at me, which any heavy knows marks him out as a possible threat).

As for engineer, Valve must think VERY carefully - engineer updates seem to have the potential to massively skew the gameplay IMHO

My summary of what I think is possible:

• Allow a sentry to be ubered (or Kritzed), giving the ability to save a defensive position when a team is taken out and the engineer is dead
• Allow a "quick build" level 1 sentry with virtually no metal. Limited to level 2 upgrade but at massive expense of metal to get it to level 2
• Implement a Natascha effect level 1 and 2 sentry - which reverts to normal when upgraded to level 3
• Golden spanner - allows quicker build of SG, Dispenser and TP. Spanner is very weak melee against spies and other enemies
• Silver spanner - allows slower build of SG, Dispenser and TP but these have 'x' % more hit points. Spanner is very weak melee against spies and other enemies

[Hzza]

I play engi and spy, and tbh if i had the choice for a one on one match, i'd go for engi. 

He needs help against:-

1) stronger and groups of classes: a buffed heavy is strong enough to take the force of an sg almost by himself, and with sollys and others to back him an sg is down in seconds
2) As valve have rightly said, make him more dynamic and able to leave his nest by more than just a few metres.

So you want more survivability with more dynamic movement? Heavy with a jetpack?

I think its going to be a choice of one or t'other to be honest, either buildings that are quicker to set up but can't be leveled or buildings that take longer to set up but are more resiliant. Boringsauce I know, but meh, maybe his weapon unlocks will change his playstyle because I'm sure they won't change the buildings themselves.

I also would like the railgun/guitar combo from Teatimes article, you'd see me play a lot more (srsbsns) engie packing that setup and a lvl 1 sentry that goes up in less then a second.

[Power]

I want to be able to seal entrances and gates off. Weeeeeeee you are all stuck in your spawn.

[egg]

I play engi and spy, and tbh if i had the choice for a one on one match, i'd go for engi. 

He needs help against:-

1) stronger and groups of classes: a buffed heavy is strong enough to take the force of an sg almost by himself, and with sollys and others to back him an sg is down in seconds
2) As valve have rightly said, make him more dynamic and able to leave his nest by more than just a few metres.

So you want more survivability with more dynamic movement? Heavy with a jetpack?

I think its going to be a choice of one or t'other to be honest, either buildings that are quicker to set up but can't be leveled or buildings that take longer to set up but are more resiliant. Boringsauce I know, but meh, maybe his weapon unlocks will change his playstyle because I'm sure they won't change the buildings themselves.

I also would like the railgun/guitar combo from Teatimes article, you'd see me play a lot more (srsbsns) engie packing that setup and a lvl 1 sentry that goes up in less then a second.

I agree I never said give him both, just that those are his weak points

And i love the idea of SG's being ubered or kritzd +1 fatty

[discordance]

Demo is engies worst enemy and im hoping for wacky buildings, the stuff weve gotten onto in this thread now (since the more humourous suggestions) like quick build level 1 sentries have been tried by valve already and doesn't sound much fun tbh (and i'm guessing valve have come to the same conclusion or they'd have the new items sorted by now). And people will just get better at watching for random lvl 1s when they go up fast just like they got better at spy checking. Ubering sentries as well is arguably a waste of an uber since escaping an ubered sentry is easier than escaping a slow moving ubered fatty. Different ammos for the sentry would be nice but again more buildings please! And i'm guessing here but from the way the blogs talking I think we can expect probably 2 new buildings and only 1 replacement weapon, or maybe even 3 buildings.

[Brahms]

What buildings though? Area of effect EMP blast? Tracer dart? Robot dispenser?