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December 2025

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[Cheez]

Yeah Shintaz is disgracefully good, just got voted best scout in etf2l (top league in eu).
Main reason I havent done competitive tf2 yet, is partly cus im a lazy bastard but more to do with what junta said about the attitudes. I did a couple of mixes with abda the other day and in one of them in my team was a fairly good scout and my partner solly was ok aswell. They just spent the entire match just ripping the shit out of our medic (who to be fair was pretty useless) but still doesnt give them permission to rip him a new one,  I had to keep telling them to give it a rest cus he wasnt exactly dying on purpose.
But I am looking foward to giving it a go with guys I know aren't complete jebends

[DeadlyAvenger]

As a newcomer to the online gaming scene, it seems odd to me that there is such a gulf between competetive play and pub/fun play. Kinda like having the premiership and then a kick about in the park.

I would have thought there would be enough players to support a thriving middle ground with perhaps less focus on 6v6, kinda of a sunday league system.

It appears to me that to even get on the lowest rung of the tf2 competative ladder you need serious dedication, skill and most of all time, I think this gulf is what drive the negative attitudes on both sides, its a shame as I think theres many (myself included) who would like a fun but competative league in say highlander format without the hangups.

Maybe we should start/organise a sunday league

[Teatime]

I felt Teatime's comment was a bit of a low blow

For the most part I was kidding. As in every group of people you have a mix of good and bad people.
However, I'm under the impression that fierce competition of any kind brings up a few bad sides in people (e.g. arrogance) and many systems favour the ruthless people who push their way to the top regardless of what it takes.

What I actually despise is seeing people with clan tags (which at least to some degree indicates basic knowledge and experience) play a rubbish game, what we - back in the days - called playing for "shit and giggles", which often can ruin an otherwise okay game.
I realize that a pub game holds no to little challenge to a competitive player, but a pub which tries to run a normal game is not a practice ground nor a place show of one's leetness.

[Brahms]

EDIT: @Brahms: Nah mate. I'm all about competition (ironically, i've only started playing competitively this last month or so). Pub play atm is so bad I tend to avoid it at all costs. WDG imo, is NOT a pub. It is an uber pub, I don't know any other server which such a interesting and fresh personality and skill level. However, when you win or lose on WDG, it means nothing. Hard to be motivated when you know the two outcomes are the same. Competition is the ultimate way to enjoy anything which involves a contest and I have an addiction to competition and winning. Of course that's not to say I win all the time, but whatever I do, I try to win. Imo, winning is the reward for patience and hard work. Therefore competitive tf2 is the best i've played because it's the most rewarding, pub play no matter how fun, can't compare to the competitive pressures and play.

I think you misunderstand me, Basin. I get that you like comp play best, what I'm saying is that comp and pub play are two different games. If you like competition, precision, tactics etc best, then you'll enjoy comp play most and enjoy it as the best TF2. But if you don't mind about those things and like dicking about most, you'll find pub play the best sort of TF2.

You could say that 6vs6 is the most effective distillation of comp tf2, and maybe a Fragfest is the most potent example of casual tf2. But to say that one is a more effective distillation of the "True" tf2 experience isn't really helpful, I don't think. They are, as has previously been said, different games.

[TheBeau]

Ahhhh. I see, so you think competition doesn't reward or respect ideals like honor and sportsmanship etc?

Fair enough tbh, that's a good point to make. Also, you're right, competition does bring out the worst in some people. I'm not quite sure where I stand on the two different attitudes anymore.

But putting that conundrum in the drawer for a second, what about the impact of competitive tf2 on the actual game? Thoughts about this? Can competitive players can't balance the game for pubbers? If not, why? I want to also know why some people are resistant to the competitive side of the game.

@Brahms, again: Mmm, but it's a contest. If you really like dicking around that much, you'd probably have Gmod and make SPARTAAA remixes. When a contest is involved, you want to win and I don't see the point in there not being a carrot at the end for me or a stick if I lose.

However, I can't dictate to others what's more fun and as you said, it's probably more hindrance than help to crown one or the other. The thing that bugs me the most, is that they are labelled different games. I'm not sure about that. One is played because it is the most efficient and allows for more skillful players to shine. The other is played because it fills servers and, as far as I know, no one has given it much thought.

[Teatime]

As in every group of people you have a mix of good and bad people.
However, I'm under the impression that fierce competition of any kind brings up a few bad sides in people (e.g. arrogance) and many systems favour the ruthless people who push their way to the top regardless of what it takes.

Just to clarify (I'm too tired for further comments atm): These were general remarks, not TF2 specific.

[DeadlyAvenger]

I guess if you wanted to go deeply into this, you could look right back at the basics at some of the reasons why people play computer games in the first place:

Reference:
http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/fac/peabody/game-book/Chapter2.html

People play games for different reasons - and people get their thrills from different aspects of the game. The players strive for proving themselves and the need for acknowledgement are those that are most likely to enter into competitive TF2 - but these same characteristics may also result in some character traits such as the competitive arrogance that it can bring out in people.

The players that play for "social lubrication" or for more casual reasons are those that are most likely to enjoy a public game. Within this you also get aspect of proving yourself (scoreboards/stats etc.) and the need for acknowledgement (dominations, MVP etc.)

However, I'm under the impression that fierce competition of any kind brings up a few bad sides in people (e.g. arrogance) and many systems favour the ruthless people who push their way to the top regardless of what it takes.

Yes - but those who moan the loudest are those that are heard first.

A prime example was at i37 in the competition we entered. Apparently the seeding groups were "all wrong" according to one of the "competitive" teams entering the fun tf2 tournament because they were about to be/were knocked out. Because they kicked up a fuss and they wanted to re-arrange the whole format of the tournament just so they had more chance of going through. Most of the fun clans there just thought they were being douchebags - and they probably were - but there's no way I'd say that's what makes them good at competitive TF2. It makes them bad for "honor and sportsmanship etc" - but in a competitive TF2 scene that's not considered important.

But as Brahms said - the game might be same, but the style they are played in competitive vs fun is VERY different so they might as well be different games.

As I keep reading these posts I'm getting more and more inclined to organise a fun tf2 league...highlander or a more relaxed 6vs6 type affair.

A few thoughts of mine on some of the posts

[TheBeau]

A WDG tourney would be freakin sweet imo.

IT'S THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS

[scroggage]

Reading through all the replies, the concept of why I play TF2 in particular has intrigued me. I'm not sure really, I guess it's the dynamic of the game. You always have two teams, each with an objective (not always the same objective) who aren't just trying to kill the enemy team and nothing else. This is what sets it apart in my mind at least. I used to play a lot of Unreal Tournament 2004, but the only thing I was really any good at was Deathmatch, and there is no 'community' kind of side to that.

I pretty much only play TF2 on the WDG servers these days, pretty much because you guys have lived up to all your aims of creating a fun place to play the game, while remembering the fact there's a really good, diverse game underneath the community bit. When I go back to a 'normal' public server, say a UK Man Down or Hampshire Heavies one, I find the game kind of dry because it's just a bunch of players out to play the game, rather than a team willing to play together.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think that competitive and public TF2 are two 'different games' as such, I think there's a sliding scale of how much you value team play in your TF2. Some of us (like me) aren't reaaallly good enough to do anything more than play with a well-coordinated pub team like on WDG, or perhaps on a friendly match squad of 6 or 9, but you can see how people would want to play the game more 'properly' as they get better at doing so.

I guess it's like Brahms said about what you value more... playing a fun videogame with mates or playing on an efficient, winning team. WDG servers pretty much get the balance right for how I like playing, but someone with talent (like Basing) will obviously eventually want to progress beyond the public mindset and I can appreciate that.

Sorry about the huge post... I seem incapable of expressing myself concisely

[Junta]

I think you misunderstand me, Basin.

You called him a basin

*sorry - someone re-reail quickly*

[Junta]

A WDG tourney would be freakin sweet imo.

Can you elaborate on this idea? We can't promise anything but all good ideas get consideration by the leaders

[Guilt is a rope... etc]

A WDG tourney would be freakin sweet imo.

Can you elaborate on this idea? We can't promise anything but all good ideas get consideration by the leaders

Must be enough members and regs for a trial informal mini-league, maybe randomly selected teams, which last about a month.

Invite only, everyone is known so won't act like dicks. Could be fun

*only idea, don't shoot me (in real life)*

[DeadlyAvenger]

Maybe we should start/organise a sunday league

*takes credit*

Even though I havn't thought about it fully - my idea would be to either accept non-competitive teams from clans (e.g. NuB, HAM, BFM, SAC etc.) and then any regs that were interested would be put into a pot and formed into as many teams as there are available.

Format would be less strict than normal competitive play e.g.
- each team chooses a map to play (can be any stock TF2 map, or perhaps even custom maps if both parties agree) for each match
- no restricted weapons
- other more relaxed rules to be decided

[Gan]

Well, before creating a "real" TF2 tourny - how about trying to start with something easier to organise and less vulnerable to something like quitting teams or players?

What I suggest would be a bball 2on2 or an arena 2on2 tournament! It sure is easier to form pairs of 2 with people who can easily be replaced if the real life interferes than 6on6 teams.

[Guilt is a rope... etc]

Maybe we should start/organise a sunday league

*takes credit*

I would have thought there would be enough players to support a thriving middle ground with perhaps less focus on 6v6, kinda of a sunday league system.

Blantant plagarism of concept!!!