next »

[Please Support Us!]

Please Support Us!

Please help keep (=WDG=) alive

• Server rules
• Forum rules
• Join us
  
• Clan members
• About the clan
• Server stats
• WDG YouTube Channel
• WDG Downloads
• IRC Webchat

Steam groups:

• WDG community
• WDG clan group
• WDG Battlelog Platoon

Our allies:

• [NuB] TF2 clan
• Velocity Gamers Hub
• Destination Gamer

GoG Links:

• Wix Discord
• Wix IRC channel

TF2 Links:

• Official TF2 Blog
• TF2 Steam Forum
• The Fort 2

April 2024

Mo	Tu	We	Th	Fr	Sa	Su
1	2	3	4	5	6	7
8	9	10	11	12	13	14
15	16	17	18	19	20	21
22	23	24	25	26	27	28
29	30
	Birthdays
Power (43), Mr Chug (35), Cheez (34)
	Upcoming Events
Upcoming Birthdays: Power (43), Mr Chug (35), Cheez (34)

[claws]

I think that demoman, at high level, was better than most other classes before they nerfed him a bit. But I'm a soldier, so I would say that.

Fixed back

[Nineblade]

I think that demoman, at high level, was better than most other classes before they nerfed him a bit. But I'm a soldier cry baby, so I would say that.

Counter fixed

[egg]

I know that demoman, played by egg, was better than all other classes before they nerfed him a bit too much. But I'm jealous, so I would say that.

fixed some moar lol

[Torgue]

I know that demoman, played by egg, was better than all other classes before they nerfed him a bit too much. But I'm jealous, so I would say that.

fixed some moar lol

lol indeed.

[Brahms]

LEARN 2 SPADE, NOOBS.

Really though, I don't think that demoman has been made any less powerful in terms of his ability to help the team, he's just had his role shut down from "Front line enemy killing, turret busting, point defending, uber juggling super man" to a more supporting one.

A class that can do everything renders the class system meaningless.

[Teatime]

Okay, new one:

Can somebody, preferably in very simple words, explain to me why the competitive scene favours team sizes of 6 players?

[CruelCow]

Because even having 5 friends is hard for someone who plays a lot of computer games?

[Finaldeath]

Haha, likely because it's easier to organise, but any less would just be a pitiful display of 1v1's.

[Junta]

Because even having 5 friends is hard for someone who plays a lot of computer games?

ROFL +1

[Hzza]

Not really sure to be honest Tea, I think for the most part it's an organziational thing, plus 6 is a nice number of players without things getting too crowded/spammy.

For more insights into the 6vs6 world check out the Friendly Fire podcast and The Beginers Guide to Comp TF2. I don't think either will answer your question, but might prove useful in whatever it is the next wonderful article is about .

[DeadlyAvenger]

Well you know from experience that servers with too few players on usually results in total destruction for one team and generally isn't very enjoyable.

Also - I think point capture speeds are capped at 5 players on the point. I think with teams smaller than this the other team would be able to get back to the point and kill everyone on it before they had chance to cap it (and not enough time to build up an uber either)

I guess if you go the other way with larger team sizes you end up with too much spam - and less focus on tactics and individual player skill. If you only have 6 players, you can only possibly choose from 9 classes so some strategic thinking has to take place to decide what those classes should be.

Like the others have said - 6 isn't an unreasonable number of players to organise for a team whereas if you went for 9vs9 you'd need to organise those 9 players, and probably have a couple of subs kicking around.

It probably also has some basis in communications - more players = more voice chat = harder to understand what an individual is saying.

That's a few thoughts from me.

[Teatime]

Okay, might also have to do with TF2 Leagues favouring CP maps.
IIRC the american TFC leagues played with 8 players teams. But the predominantly played maps where CTF maps which require different gameplay. Also the common division into O and D minimized communication problems.

Still, 6 players impose a lot of restrictions in regard of usable maps, also it really leaves very few room for diversity in regard of classes (e.g. a spy is almost useless with such small teams)

[TheBeau]

I think diversity isn't the issue here Tea, this is a competition, the people only care about having a level playing field. In a competitive league you want equality in the map and team composition, the things which offer diversity are tactics and personal style because these involve skill. Classes like the spy, engineer and pyro, (at least in my opinion) rely on the enemy being unskilled for instance a pyro should never be able to kill a soldier head on simply because of short range and being prone to knockback and juggling. Therefore these classes are invalided in competitive games because relying on the enemy to make a mistake is strategical folly.

Soldiers are incredibly dangerous and versatile at many ranges, this makes them a must for any competitive team and paired with the vital medic, it is easy to see how this quickly becomes the heart of the team. A heavy just can't compare to the versatility of the soldier as well as other impediments like movement speed and weakness when not prepared. But what's better than Soldier + Medic? Two soldiers of course! I think class limits are put in place so it's not just 5 soldiers and a medic, which results in inevitable spam and unskilled play, something which needs to be removed from competitive play to introduce the concept of skill. So that's why you have your typical two soldiers in most 6 v 6 teams. (in my opinion, no facts unfortunately)

The demoman is also very versatile and is arguably better than a soldier in many situations. He can shut areas off completely with stickies, when ubered he has 12 rounds of high damage, high splash explosives, he can jump further and faster than the soldier, making him perfect for last second gravelpit defences. You can see how effective a demoman is simply looking for frag vids on youtube. It's important to have him because he is the best class to attack the flanks with whilst the soldiers are tanking. Additionally, two demo men aren't really useful. Sure they can shut more areas off, but in most maps there are only a couple of entry points (the two tunnels in granary at mid spring to mind). Two demomen will still be destroyed by effective scouts and two of them together strain the medic further as they are vulnerable to damage. Also two demomen promotes more spam which promotes unskilled play which needs to be removed etc. This is why I think there is usually only one demoman.

But the demoman has, of course, a weakness, no hitscan weapon, making it difficult to hit or finish off fast enemies with erratic flight movement. Enter the scout. He's fast, caps twice as fast allowing him to backcap if the enemy soldier medic combo are ubered, he has a mean primary weapon seemingly designed to torture medics and is the hardest enemy for the demo to fight due to the double jump. Their movement allows them to get to places faster than anyone else and this of course allows them to rip up the flanks of the soldier medic combo and absolutely rape the demoman if he's isolated. If you noticed I said 'their'. The scout is just so effective at removing the medic and demoman, two key parts of the team, and having a second scout is double trouble for the enemy. The scattergun (and FaN now) can be incredibly effective when employed properly, two scouts means two targets for the soldier or the demo and if he gets one scout the other can still pick the medic or take the demo down.

Finally, the medic. THE core, the literal lifeblood of the team. Once the medic is down, you know you have to retreat because you no longer have that fountain of health to draw on. This alone makes him absolutely vital to the team, because of the respawn timers. He keeps the team ticking and fighting. His other ability, is the uber or the kritz. There are a lot of incredible mindgames involved with the uber. The enemy scouts will hear a medic shout "Fully Charged!", allowing their team to provoke the uber in a bad spot and then counter attack it, essentially preparing for the uber. So most medics cover this voice command up with another one, apparently 'Negative' is the quietest. This way the medic can spring a suprise uber on the enemy, hopefully taking a decent portion of the team out so they can cap and/or push onto the final point. Additionally, another interesting tactic is the fact he can fake ubers too! Shouting "Fully Charged!" Will usually make the push forward easier, because the enemy is preparing for the uber. This fake out has its uses and although I don't know much about it, (ask abda for protips) it seems like the medic has a lot on his plate. All of this of course makes him vital to any team.

So far that's the 'magic' 6. As for why there isn't more, I think it's first and foremostly to heighten the skill ceiling. Small teams makes every single player even more important to the team. It prevents rambo'ing and it prevents rambo'ing being effective. The respawn timers aren't too much of a problem in pubs because unless everyone got killed at the same time, it's not a big deal. But in six vs six, those vital 20 seconds without your medic, or one of your soldiers, puts you at an incredible disadvantage meaning you have to adapt and deal with the situation. Enter the skill factor.

Sorry to go off on an incredible tangent Tea, but I wasn't sure if the last paragraph would make sense if the importance of the classes normally used wasn't explained. By the way, this is from very limited first hand knowledge, having never even played a pick-up, what I know may of course be different from the truth. But I've read it back and I think it makes sense? Again sorry to go off on a crazy tangent, but I'm very interested in the competitive side of tf2 and am starting the transition to the higher skill games.

TLDR Version: More players more spam, less skill. Competitive players want to heighten the skill ceiling, therefore less players. But maintain the team strategy and tactics, therefore they use the classes which depend on skill and have class limits to prevent spam.

And if you ever need me for crazy Fort experiments Tea, I am more than willing!

[DeadlyAvenger]

I think diversity isn't the issue here Tea, this is a competition, the people only care about having a level playing field. In a competitive league you want equality in the map and team composition, the things which offer diversity are tactics and personal style because these involve skill. Classes like the spy, engineer and pyro, (at least in my opinion) rely on the enemy being unskilled for instance a pyro should never be able to kill a soldier head on simply because of short range and being prone to knockback and juggling. Therefore these classes are invalided in competitive games because relying on the enemy to make a mistake is strategical folly.

Soldiers are incredibly dangerous and versatile at many ranges, this makes them a must for any competitive team and paired with the vital medic, it is easy to see how this quickly becomes the heart of the team. A heavy just can't compare to the versatility of the soldier as well as other impediments like movement speed and weakness when not prepared. But what's better than Soldier + Medic? Two soldiers of course! I think class limits are put in place so it's not just 5 soldiers and a medic, which results in inevitable spam and unskilled play, something which needs to be removed from competitive play to introduce the concept of skill. So that's why you have your typical two soldiers in most 6 v 6 teams. (in my opinion, no facts unfortunately)

The demoman is also very versatile and is arguably better than a soldier in many situations. He can shut areas off completely with stickies, when ubered he has 12 rounds of high damage, high splash explosives, he can jump further and faster than the soldier, making him perfect for last second gravelpit defences. You can see how effective a demoman is simply looking for frag vids on youtube. It's important to have him because he is the best class to attack the flanks with whilst the soldiers are tanking. Additionally, two demo men aren't really useful. Sure they can shut more areas off, but in most maps there are only a couple of entry points (the two tunnels in granary at mid spring to mind). Two demomen will still be destroyed by effective scouts and two of them together strain the medic further as they are vulnerable to damage. Also two demomen promotes more spam which promotes unskilled play which needs to be removed etc. This is why I think there is usually only one demoman.

But the demoman has, of course, a weakness, no hitscan weapon, making it difficult to hit or finish off fast enemies with erratic flight movement. Enter the scout. He's fast, caps twice as fast allowing him to backcap if the enemy soldier medic combo are ubered, he has a mean primary weapon seemingly designed to torture medics and is the hardest enemy for the demo to fight due to the double jump. Their movement allows them to get to places faster than anyone else and this of course allows them to rip up the flanks of the soldier medic combo and absolutely rape the demoman if he's isolated. If you noticed I said 'their'. The scout is just so effective at removing the medic and demoman, two key parts of the team, and having a second scout is double trouble for the enemy. The scattergun (and FaN now) can be incredibly effective when employed properly, two scouts means two targets for the soldier or the demo and if he gets one scout the other can still pick the medic or take the demo down.

Finally, the medic. THE core, the literal lifeblood of the team. Once the medic is down, you know you have to retreat because you no longer have that fountain of health to draw on. This alone makes him absolutely vital to the team, because of the respawn timers. He keeps the team ticking and fighting. His other ability, is the uber or the kritz. There are a lot of incredible mindgames involved with the uber. The enemy scouts will hear a medic shout "Fully Charged!", allowing their team to provoke the uber in a bad spot and then counter attack it, essentially preparing for the uber. So most medics cover this voice command up with another one, apparently 'Negative' is the quietest. This way the medic can spring a suprise uber on the enemy, hopefully taking a decent portion of the team out so they can cap and/or push onto the final point. Additionally, another interesting tactic is the fact he can fake ubers too! Shouting "Fully Charged!" Will usually make the push forward easier, because the enemy is preparing for the uber. This fake out has its uses and although I don't know much about it, (ask abda for protips) it seems like the medic has a lot on his plate. All of this of course makes him vital to any team.

So far that's the 'magic' 6. As for why there isn't more, I think it's first and foremostly to heighten the skill ceiling. Small teams makes every single player even more important to the team. It prevents rambo'ing and it prevents rambo'ing being effective. The respawn timers aren't too much of a problem in pubs because unless everyone got killed at the same time, it's not a big deal. But in six vs six, those vital 20 seconds without your medic, or one of your soldiers, puts you at an incredible disadvantage meaning you have to adapt and deal with the situation. Enter the skill factor.

Sorry to go off on an incredible tangent Tea, but I wasn't sure if the last paragraph would make sense if the importance of the classes normally used wasn't explained. By the way, this is from very limited first hand knowledge, having never even played a pick-up, what I know may of course be different from the truth. But I've read it back and I think it makes sense? Again sorry to go off on a crazy tangent, but I'm very interested in the competitive side of tf2 and am starting the transition to the higher skill games.

TLDR Version: More players more spam, less skill. Competitive players want to heighten the skill ceiling, therefore less players. But maintain the team strategy and tactics, therefore they use the classes which depend on skill and have class limits to prevent spam.

And if you ever need me for crazy Fort experiments Tea, I am more than willing!

Quoted because this is epic. Very in-depth. Have you been writing since you left the server a few hours ago!?!?

[TheBeau]

Haha nah it took me about twenty minutes actually probably longer because I was doing other things when I needed a better word for good or better. But tbh I've been bursting to shower people with my monotonous theory about competitive tf2 so this was a godsend.