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October 2025

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[Brahms]

I wonder how much of stuff can just be related to the community aging and old people not having as much time for gaming.

[Omnipotens]

I appreciate everyone reading and responding with their comments to this thread. I also understand the frustration that the game is pumping into older players. I'm not going to argue about people's personal take on the game because it's fully understandable.

The focus always seems to switch onto my desire to pimp the public server, so I always end up focusing on this. I don't mean to sound like I'm flogging a dead horse, but it seems that a lot of people think it is one.

I do have to say though, that there is an overlying defeatist attitude towards public play and this is exactly why I was trying to point out in that particular part of my post.

At any given day when the server is empty, there is a list of regulars and friends and even WDG members who are still playing public TF2, just not on the WDG server. I don't see why this has to be the case, especially when there are people who are willing to try to pimp the server. When an effort is made and more people start to hit the server, then these regs switch server and join us (for the most part).

I still think that one of the major hurdles to this is the fear that people will be driven away from the community group, if events are held every day (which is entirely possible with minimal effort). I understand that to a point, but there are easy enough options to this and a different group is one of them. If I get spammed out of an additional group to a main, I don't believe I'd leave two groups out of spite. Having said that, why care if that's the case?

There are 341 members in the WDG group at present. How many of them are involved with WDG on a weekly basis, other than just being in the group and idling? A tenth of that? I'm still not sure I understand the concern in regards to pushing idlers away from a group.

My take is that the group that's being protected in this case, aren't really active in anything, not just TF2. If that's the case and we still want to protect people, then another group is a better solution.

I've been tempted to do this myself and just create a group outside of the loop and sod the consequences of spam. It's less effort to do that, than it is to spam personal invites out on Steam. I spammed out 30 invites the other night, only to have 20 repsonses of "?", because Steam hadn't acutally sent out anything but a blank text message. Having to explain yourself 20 times, is a bit annoying. My friends list is more populated than it ever has been, in an attempt to boost traffic, and only in an attempt to boost traffic.

The game may be F2P and it may be dull for a lot of the older players, but there are NEW regulars out there who are willing to join the community and we HAVE to cater for them if we wish to continue to be a community at all. Otherwise, the community remains insular with the old members and starts to become a little masonic lodge.

Competition

In regards to competetive play, I understand the issues here too. I come from a semi-pro CS background and I know the stresses and problems that these things cause. A scrim team isn't exactly what I'm after within WDG, because to be honest, I don't want the hassle and the elitist bullshit that goes with it. I won't pull any punches if anyone starts to be high and mighty with me, because I don't react well to people giving me shit. But in the case of scrims and inner circles.. this is the case, it IS a club and the idea of "just asking" doesn't apply, it really doesn't.

The past mixes that I've seen in progress, have been filled with the same people. You get invited to these things, you don't invite yourself in, primarily because they are organised between the players who are seen to WANT to be in them. This isn't anyone's fault, but the idea that anyone is welcome is pretty much shelved when you have a set group of folk you go to. This is the point I was making about the rank and file, the inner circles and the go to guys.

I know for a fact that mixes are a hell of a lot of fun. So internally, can't we have a hell of a lot of fun too, without making a massive deal about winning? There's just no organisation from within, to make this possible.


Like I say, I think admin have done a wonderful job and continue to do so. But for internal organisation of anything I've raised, things are required of admin. Anyone could make a group and pimp the server with a differing level of success, but they could not provide an admin prescence on the server. I could create a mix thread, get 6 players from regulars or from outside of WDG ask for the password and get on the scrim server, but I would still require an admin to map change. I'm aware we can just ask, but it is a level of red tape that doesn't really need to exist.

From the perspective of someone who's been in multiple communities, run servers and "been there", some of the things I'm talking about just require a certain level of activity. If it's there in other people, then use the resources you've got as a group to sort it out, rather than looking at the current resources and thinking it's not doable.

Some of this may be old news to older members of the community, this isn't the case for newer people or the people we've yet to tap into.

I'm passionate about trying to make this work, so I probably sound ranty with this. I really don't want to wind anyone up the wrong way with any of this!

Peace.

[Burnalot]

Competition
...I don't want the hassle and the elitist bullshit that goes with it. I won't pull any punches if anyone starts to be high and mighty with me, because I don't react well to people giving me shit. But in the case of scrims and inner circles.. this is the case, it IS a club and the idea of "just asking" doesn't apply, it really doesn't.

I find this quote incredibly irritating, if I have read it correctly. To imply that people who play 6v6 in this community are "high and mighty" or "elitist" when you have barely if ever played with us is slightly annoying. Tarring everyone with the same brush, perhaps?

As for "asking" not applying to this situation, I disagree. Do you expect us to invite everyone we know to mix with us in a game requiring 6 people maximum, if none of these individuals have expressed interest? The fact that several "competitive" players have offered to help time and time again suggests that we would gladly involve other people if they asked, which in my mind is hardly difficult.

My aim here isn't to argue, but I cannot help but be slightly annoyed by the above.

[Omnipotens]

Competition
...I don't want the hassle and the elitist bullshit that goes with it. I won't pull any punches if anyone starts to be high and mighty with me, because I don't react well to people giving me shit. But in the case of scrims and inner circles.. this is the case, it IS a club and the idea of "just asking" doesn't apply, it really doesn't.

I find this quote incredibly irritating, if I have read it correctly. To imply that people who play 6v6 in this community are "high and mighty" or "elitist" when you have barely if ever played with us is slightly annoying.

As for "asking" not applying to this situation, I disagree. Do you expect us to invite everyone we know to mix with us in a game requiring 6 people maximum, if none of these individuals have expressed interest? The fact that several "competitive" players have offered to help time and time again suggests that we would gladly involve other people if they asked, which in my mind is hardly difficult.

That's not what I meant at all, I meant serious competition play in a full on league scenario and the pressures that come with it.

I've tried to stress that I'm not attacking anyone at all, and I mean that.

In regards to asking to be involved in games, it helps if people know they were being played in the first place - which I didn't.

[Burnalot]

It's hardly a secret that people organise mixes within the community. Most of us invite those who we know are interested. Express an interest and I'm pretty sure people would ask you if you'd like to join if a mix was going on at any point.

Or perhaps ask people if they'd like to mix? That's how it has always been done.

EDIT: I'm aware that you're not intending to attack anyone, but your phrasing reinforces bad stereotypes.

[Karthus]

I dont understand you Omni. I really dont. Theres no "elitist bullshit" or any "club".

If you expect ME to ask around if people who have never played competitive TF2 want to play a mix, then youre living in a wrong world. Show some initiative, thats all, noones being left out.

I agree with Burnalot, this stuff annoys me. People always assume stuff when it comes to the "allmighty" scrim team. I -personally- got really pissed off when we announced that the Scrim Team was leaving WDG and people who had NOTHING to do with the team at all and didnt get affected by this in ANY WAY (since we still hang around in this community) accused us of stuff that was so over-the-top. Why the hostility?

[DeadlyAvenger]

Let's stop talking about the Scrim team please. We've already had this discussion on many occasions and it never ends well.

[Omnipotens]

It's hardly a secret that people organise mixes within the community. Most of us invite those who we know are interested. Express an interest and I'm pretty sure people would ask you if you'd like to join if a mix was going on at any point.

Or perhaps ask people if they'd like to mix? That's how it has always been done.

EDIT: I'm aware that you're not intending to attack anyone, but your phrasing reinforces bad stereotypes.

It was a suprise to me that there were mixes going on, it wasn't until I checked where the dropping players were going to that they were. I've not seen any threads since I've been a member, as you say, I'm new - I've tried to stress that in my posts too. The inner workings and the things that go on are not new to you.

I've never played competetive TF2, nor a single mix. I've only been a pub player, I wouldn't know where to go to organise a mix. In effect I'd be asking someone to start organising something on my behalf. I don't know people well enoguh yet to know who does this stuff.

You've taken this a little out of context, because that's my attitude coming from a semi pro backinground in another game, with things getting a little out of control with the pressures to perform. Again, this isn't aimed at anyone here, that I know or don't know, just at the pressures of going "comp".

[terror]

Just a quick note from myself here;

If anyone's ever a player short for anything and I'm online I'm always happy to fill a slot, I've covered for missing players in CS/TF2 before, although I must admit I'm not exactly pro, especially after a 3 year break from TF2.

[Omnipotens]

K, well I'm inflaming an old argument that I was never a part of and I'm being taken out of context.

I'm not getting into the middle of an old argument here. That was never my intention.

As for me living in the wrong world, for a world I didn't really know existed, I think that's a little unfair.

Certainly seems that by trying to start a new conversation off the back of something I'm not fully aware of, is going to lead to calls of ignorance on my behalf and you're right.. I don't know. So please don't attack me for that.

[Karthus]

Not attacking you, Omni. Youre allright. But please dont come up with stuff thats just not true. Thats all.

<3

Comment made, Im done with this topic.

Last words: Show initiative, youre more than welcome to play mixes with us. Noones hostile.

[Jebus]

Mixes currently being played are not 'WDG' mixes (usually only involve 1-2 members). They only started a few weeks ago as I wanted to play some comp again so asked around to see who was interested. I was a bit picky on who I asked based on following criteria:

1) played a 6v6 class as their primary class
2) had voiced interest
3) had played some competitive before

The reason for point 3 was I was looking to play a div5/6 level of mix - as were most of the people I asked. 6v6 is good fun but there is a learning curve and we kinda just wanted to jump into some matches straight away. I was not excluding people intentionally to keep it in any form of internal circle - in fact many of the players are new to the group.

What I suggest you do is find at least 3-4 players who are new-ish to 6v6, and roughly meet the class ratios - 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 medic, 1 demo (i.e. not 4 scouts). Then let me know a night you want to play and I (and I am sure a number of other people who have played 6v6 before) will be happy to fill numbers, go through basics and find you matches. This way the majority of the team will be at a similar level which means you will have more fun as we can match against similar level teams.

I think this will work better than trying to mix new players into the current matches. This is quite a common setup in a lot of communities. It also makes it a lot easier to organise and run internal fun mixes as more players are clued up on how they work.

[DeadlyAvenger]

Let's stop talking about the Scrim team please. We've already had this discussion on many occasions and it never ends well.

Blegh, wrote that too hastily. Don't bow out of the discussion because of it - but be very careful of how what you post might be perceived by others. Unless you're absolutely sure of their thoughts/meaning/motives behind it, talk to them directly and find out.

[Cheez]

Just like to address the 'can't just ask to play' from you Omni mate. The main frustration with the more experienced 6v6 people playing with people who have never played it before at all is not to do with skill or aim etc, it's the fact that you just wouldn't have a clue what is going on. I'd liken it to inviting someone to play a game of football and then that person picking up the ball and running round with it.

So am I saying that you shouldn't ask to play/ don't play at all? Hell no! If anyone is interested in giving it a try then familiarise yourself with the general information (very basic rollouts and class jobs), google or etf2l is your friend here. Then maybe ask someone from this community who you know and know plays some 6v6 if they can go through a bit of stuff with you on a private server. I have lost count of the amount of players I have done this with, hell me and nine used to spend hours on end on server 2 so he could get his jumps better! (And I bloody enjoyed doing it aswell, probably cus nine is a legend though) I'm not telling you this to blow my own horn but to say that people don't turn into pricks when they start playing competitively, chances are if they were in or around WDG then they are nice people! I would usually say at this part, 'ask me anytime' but as I'm never around anymore then I would suggest some more active players you see on steam.

To sum-up, put in a few hours of reading/researching and then request the help of someone you know. Then when mixes are popping up, people know you are interested and will ask you if you fancy a game. If they don't then ask a couple of people if they wanna get a mix going. If people are reading this thinking "It's a game, I'm not going to waste my time researching about playing a game" then ask yourself Why would the more experienced players bother to help you?

[Chaos]

I can vouch for how much cheez did for everyone here. He taught me everything I knew (and more but I can't retain that much).

Everyone has to realise that we're in a community together and that we're here for the same reasons... we like playing with each other!

As far as playing officials goes, it's always been (and imo should be) those that turn up to practice that get to play. But practices were open when I ran them and everyone was invited to play.

WDG is full of awesome people. Everyone is great in their own way. EVERYONE! But seriously, unless you actually ask people to mix, you can't expect them to ask you. If they're on mumble, join them. Ask them on steam to get a game going, there's usually enough WDGers who wanna play a mix now and then.

As far as the elitist thing goes, I think I get where you're coming from. All the 6v6ers talk about how they hate all the weapons and that's because they simply don't enjoy all the extra mechanics that these weapons bring to the table. I feel that there's enough complex decisions to make as it is in TF2 without having to worry about some crazy gun you didn't even know existed! (Engies stealing ubercharge? the fk?) I simply don't enjoy playing public TF2 because of all these weapons. I can't be arsed to read the patch notes and learn the weapons anymore because there's just too many!

Also, regarding getting an admin to change a map for you.. I've never known deadly or mode to decline a request like that from me without a great reason, ever. Again, just ask, they're top blokes (apart from mode who's a baddy)