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December 2025

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[Power]

There have been projectile aimbots (rocket launcher and similar) previously, but since they can only take into consideration the current data (direction, velocity and distance) they are far less reliable than the hitscan aimbots, because there are very few people around who always run in a straight line without ever stopping.

[claws]

Why can't they track player positions? If a player can do it, an aimbot can.

[Power]

Of course they can. Distance, direction and speed relative to yourself are used to predict where the enemy will be at the time that your projectile needs to travel the distance between you and your target. But once you made your shot, you can't correct the trajectory of your projectile, so if the target changes direction or speed after you shot you won't hit it - an aimbot (nor human) can't predict nor account for this changes once the shot has been made.

Humans are actually better at "predicting" (more like guessing) of what the opponent might do next, due to the knowledge of the human nature. So those aimbots are around, but they aren't very effective.

[hawt!]

Computers can't do alot humans can. Is a computer able to make sweet love to a woman?

 Only in Japan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in8B-PCGsRo

[claws]

Sure, I guess what I mean is that an 'aimbot' could probably be damn handy (just how handy depends on your faith in the algorithms, I guess).

[DeadlyAvenger]

Well for projectile weapons - the further away the enemy is and the slower your projectile travels means there is more time for the target to move out of the way and you become less likely to hit them - just like if you see a rocket coming towards you, you can dodge it. ok - you can try and predict the direction the player is travelling in, their speed etc. to try to guess where they'll be in a second - but they only have to stop/strafe/jump and then it'll miss.

a projectile aimbot would be most powerful up close & personal where there is less time between the projectile and the target - it would also be pretty cool for airshots.

I'd be interested to see how the bots are at handling this? If a tf2 bot can do it - then it's certainly possible.

[CruelCow]

Now I've never been too much into the hacking scene, but I think the general opinion is: why bother? Even a perfect system would be pretty unreliable (except close range, where it would be awesome to splash those damn scouts), even for aerials where good players are strafing.
In nearly any game that features projectile weapons in the first place, you have the option to switch to hitscan with the "good" results again, so why bother?

[Teatime]

Just to play devil's advocate again:

Let's assume Valve says "Cheaters will be banned, but if an account was hacked that person might apply for reversal".
After that every cheater with more than fleeting ambition will either find some good buddies (on the internet, where these persons could be located anywhere on the world, even China) to "hack" each other others accounts (granted, that would take some trust, though) or even "hack" it himself by logging in from a different machine or via proxy measures (disguising IPs). Far fetched? Not sure.

[hawt!]

Just to play devil's advocate again:

Let's assume Valve says "Cheaters will be banned, but if an account was hacked that person might apply for reversal".
After that every cheater with more than fleeting ambition will either find some good buddies (on the internet, where these persons could be located anywhere on the world, even China) to "hack" each other others accounts (granted, that would take some trust, though) or even "hack" it himself by logging in from a different machine or via proxy measures (disguising IPs). Far fetched? Not sure.

 This thread is getting way too complicated.  To lighten the mood a little, here are the complete lyrics to 'Wonderboy':

High above the mucky-muck, castle made of clouds,
There sits Wonderboy, sitting oh so proudly.
Not much to say when you're high above the mucky-muck.
Yeah, yeah.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power?
Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now?

[spoken]
Now it's time for me to tell you about Young Nastyman,
archrival and nemesis of Wonderboy, with powers comparable to Wonderboy.
What powers you ask? I dunno, how 'bout the power of flight?
That do anything for ya? That's levitation holmes.
How 'bout the power to kill a yak, from 200 yards away...
with mind bullets! That's telekinesis, Kyle.
How 'bout the power... to move you?

[sung]
History of Wonderboy and Young Nastyman,
Riggah-goo-goo, riggah-goo-goog.
A secret to be told, a gold chest to be bold,
And blasting forth with three-part harmony, go!
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power?
Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from that mucky-muck man?

[spoken]
When Wonderboy and Young Nastyman joined forces;
they formed a band the likes of which have never been seen,
and they called themselves Tenacious D. That's right,
[sung]
Me! And KG!
[KG (spoken):] That's me.
[sung]
We're now Tenacious D!
Come fly with me, fly!

Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power?
Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now,
Oh!
[spoken]
Take my hand!
Young Nastyman, we're gonna fly!
Bring out your broadsword.
There's the hydra.
Slice his throat!
And grab his scrote.
You take the high road,
I'll take the low.
There, the crevasse,
Fill it with your mighty juice.

[LtMama]

Went to lucky voice (a karaoke thing) last night for my bros bday. I sang this. Also did some flight of the conchords songs. All in all a pretty ace night

[claws]

It's impossible to read it without singing it.

[Finaldeath]

That's exactly what a good "anti-cheat"-system should do!!! (anti cheat not in prevention, but in retaliation).

Rubbish, that kind of banning without arbitration and account reinstatement for false positives is the worst possible system ever. "Oh, the computer said you were hacking! It can't be wrong!". They should technically work more on the prevention angle, do your virus scanners do prevention or retaliation? Which would you prefer there?

They do NOT take those games from you, they only flag your account negatively with VAC and certain servers prevent people who are flagged that way to join. While you might argue that's technicallity, it totally removes your legal angle afaik.

I'm trying not to grind my teeth and rant at you, but I'm sure you are not a UK lawyer, solicitor, or judge. Removing peoples rights to use a service is the issue, how it is done doesn't matter. I'm not an expert, but I am sure that it could be a civil legal matter - almost anything can be when it comes to contracts, even if the case is unjustified it's not a case of "It's impossible to win" if the contract or practices of a business is unfair.

Since it'd be civil, and with no preceding case law (that I know of) regarding this kind of action, who knows...

If the entire cheat system could be circumvented by "hacking" yourself, (something that could be automated to be done within seconds without any interaction of users.) you might aswell disable the entire cheat system.

Evidently this occurred when his account was hacked, which he even got fixed by Valve themselves (or if I got this wrong, then there is an entire thread from that time period saying what happened...not hard to find the evidence on our own forums). Your claim that would work is straining my common sense too.

VAC's fine. As I said before, people would cheat, lob in a ticket saying their account was hacked, get the ban lifted and be on their merry way. It's just unfortunate that this time it happened to someone we know, I don't ever remember anyone speaking anywhere about how unjust the VAC system is when it wasn't banning our friends, so I don't see why we should start picking holes in the system now that its affected someone we know. In all my time playing TF2 I think I've only ever seen 3 legitimate "hackers", one was an aimbot and 2 speed hackers, in over 530 hours and its thanks to VAC. It's brutal, but then it has to be otherwise douchebags would rule the servers.

If anyone had posted on VAC previous to this I'd have said exactly the same thing. It's draconian, and the worst part of Steam due to Valves insistence of never arbitrating it. I have read other cases of exactly the same thing.

All said, VAC is supposedly the easiest of easy things to get around since it doesn't run as an invasive process, or in fact much of a process at all, above the game level (it's easier then Punkbuster for instance). It might well be, in fact, like other games which I've played that don't involve VAC, you just don't encounter actually that many cheaters, especially if you play on well moderated servers of whatever game you prefer. Or the other anti-cheat systems are as good or if not better...

Or they're so good at cheating you don't notice. Some people are clever like that (or do only dumb people use cheats?). This arguing for a draconian system of refusal to investigate is worrying when it bans you and all your expensive games are gone. Junta's pretty on the ball for other technical reasons it's a silly thing to have - and the fact we don't even know how they determine cheaters is the insane thing here, everyone arguing for it might well be banned by accident - then would they be saying "ooh, what a great system!".

Oh, I am sure it's cheap not dealing with complaints they get too, in fact it's making them money, he's already rebrought everything -_-; yay for capitalism and corporations!

[Junta]

Just to play devil's advocate again:

I think this could make a good Fort2 article actually Tea?

[CruelCow]

That's exactly what a good "anti-cheat"-system should do!!! (anti cheat not in prevention, but in retaliation).

Rubbish, that kind of banning without arbitration and account reinstatement for false positives is the worst possible system ever. "Oh, the computer said you were hacking! It can't be wrong!". They should technically work more on the prevention angle, do your virus scanners do prevention or retaliation? Which would you prefer there?

Problem with reinstatement is, that like said before, cheaters will have an easier time using it (since they can prepare themselves) than honest people.
It's similar to DRM: Pirates don't notice if you put in a CD check or a online activation that rechecks every 5 minutes and kicks you out of the game immediately and only allows 2 install ever, honest people do.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean with the prevention angle? What are they supposed to do? Prevent people from installing aimbots? Prevent them from developing? Unfortunately I don't see how that's supposed to work.

They do NOT take those games from you, they only flag your account negatively with VAC and certain servers prevent people who are flagged that way to join. While you might argue that's technicallity, it totally removes your legal angle afaik.

I'm trying not to grind my teeth and rant at you, but I'm sure you are not a UK lawyer, solicitor, or judge. Removing peoples rights to use a service is the issue, how it is done doesn't matter. I'm not an expert, but I am sure that it could be a civil legal matter - almost anything can be when it comes to contracts, even if the case is unjustified it's not a case of "It's impossible to win" if the contract or practices of a business is unfair.

Absolutely right, I'm not a lawyer (I didn't want to use IANAL in my original post because of..you know this forum), it was just my opinion. Quick google search finds a few lawsuits about bannings, but none because of cheating.

If the entire cheat system could be circumvented by "hacking" yourself, (something that could be automated to be done within seconds without any interaction of users.) you might aswell disable the entire cheat system.

Evidently this occurred when his account was hacked, which he even got fixed by Valve themselves (or if I got this wrong, then there is an entire thread from that time period saying what happened...not hard to find the evidence on our own forums). Your claim that would work is straining my common sense too.

I really don't get what you're saying here. Is it that it's not possible to fake being hacked?
Because if so, what evidence did Chaos present that he did get hacked? Changed avatar, ip, password and cleared friendslist? I can do all of that in 5 minutes or less.

All said, VAC is supposedly the easiest of easy things to get around since it doesn't run as an invasive process, or in fact much of a process at all, above the game level (it's easier then Punkbuster for instance). It might well be, in fact, like other games which I've played that don't involve VAC, you just don't encounter actually that many cheaters, especially if you play on well moderated servers of whatever game you prefer. Or the other anti-cheat systems are as good or if not better...

Or they're so good at cheating you don't notice. Some people are clever like that (or do only dumb people use cheats?).

I agree with most of that - measuring hack-prevention by the numbers of cheaters is not a good measure, since by that logic UT04 had the best one (technobabble: It didn't: Modders stepped up for epic and created the cheat preventions and then stopped developing, since the cheaters used hacks that didn't run in UnrealScript and therefor far out of their reach), I've never seen one in my entire gaming time.

Oh, I am sure it's cheap not dealing with complaints they get too, in fact it's making them money, he's already rebrought everything -_-; yay for capitalism and corporations!

Now that is true for any banning.

[egg]

1. AC will always be a retaliate system.  Its easier and much cheaper to simply ban people from doing it than developing fixes for all the code hooks.

2. Valve can do what they want.  It's their code and you pay for the license to use it (NOT OWN IT).  If you hack their system they are well within their rights to discontinue the service.  Take sky tv... you have a box fitted.... you hack it to get all the channels.... they stop the service.... Exactly what leg do you have to stand on???

3. Cheating is not all about killing everyone with one shot.... most cheats can be configured to simply assist your play, so yes I bet theres a large number of cheaters who have completely passed you all by.

Can we all just agree on one thing that all AC systems have their flaws, but there is no perfect solution to them. You just gotta live with them the way they are as they won't be changed.....