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My CommunityForumGamingTeam Fortress 2Topic: I'm so tired of this
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Teatime


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Still rubbish after all these years


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« on: August 17, 2009, 08:01:26 PM »

Application developers:
Have you ever developed a fairly complex program which even after extensive testing did run a 100% error free?
Have you added significant chances without ever breaking anything and you didn't notice?
Have you ever witnessed a change in A affecting something unintentionally in Z?

Everybody else:
Have you ever used a fairly complex program reaching v1.0 which was completely error free afterward?
Have you ever witnesses programs to be updated to introduce new bugs or unwanted side effects?

If you think it's so easy:
Just become a programmer. I'm sure large software companies will pay you a huge sums of money if you can live up that claim.
Fortune and fame will await you. Probably even a Nobel price.



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claws
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2009, 08:19:46 PM »

I think most of the yelling comes from the Steam forums, and it's so enormous that the signal gets lost in the noise. I do think Valve could do a better job co-operating with the sourcemod/beetlesmod/etc people though. It's daft that new releases just break functionality that almost everyone relies on.

Now fix the damn soldier jumps Smiley
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CruelCow
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Move along. Nobody suspicious is here.


« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2009, 09:34:30 PM »

Is that directed towards valve or the mod community?

Because while I agree it's impossible to write bug-free code, some of the things valve has missed are simple astounding. (Overtime as the most obvious example...)
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Power


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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2009, 09:35:08 PM »

There is a difference between having bugs after a big change to the code - that is a given - and having that very same code released without proper testing and bugfixing. Take the OVERTIME bug for example. There is NO WAY this couldn't have been caught if they properly playtested King of the Hill. I mean... explain to me, how this one slipped through?

I can undestand that soldiers RJ slipped through, as they probably didn't work on that, only on self damage. But they WORKED on KotH and just introduced it. Surely you test every possible thing you can and the OVERTIME bug (minor as it is) just shows that no one is playtesting anything.

/EDIT: Ninja'd. Looks like I'll have to use 1337 speak and abbreviations next time to be faster Wink
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Ringelbeatz
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2009, 09:44:17 PM »

its not a bug, it's a feature!!!!


OOOOVERTIME

back to topic:

I a totally agree with Teatime.



TF2 is an unicum if you think about the support. Something like that wasn't there before and I don't know if there will be something like that ever again.
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Junta
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2009, 11:43:35 PM »

You made me google "unicum" Sad
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Junta
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2009, 11:44:40 PM »

Is that directed towards valve or the mod community?

Because while I agree it's impossible to write bug-free code, some of the things valve has missed are simple astounding. (Overtime as the most obvious example...)
It is amazingly easy to let bugs through - especially "in your face" ones like the announcer!
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wingzero
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 12:19:30 AM »

thing is, they could have tested it, and it worked fine, ticked the box then changed something total unrealted which broke the overtime, or they fixed it forgot to save it, (the EvE breaking windows bug i belive was cuased by someone forgeting to save when it hit complie time which is why it was so quickly fixed) a Rule that is ramed into every proggraming student in my uni is. for every bug you fix, you create 3 more, and what do ya now, they fix overtime bug you now have scatter gun errors, demo and solly borken, and the huntsman has been nefferd but only people like me would notice that one Tongue
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Teatime


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Still rubbish after all these years


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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 01:35:06 AM »

thing is, they could have tested it, and it worked fine, ticked the box then changed something total unrealted which broke the overtime, or they fixed it forgot to save it, (the EvE breaking windows bug i belive was cuased by someone forgeting to save when it hit complie time which is why it was so quickly fixed) a Rule that is ramed into every proggraming student in my uni is. for every bug you fix, you create 3 more, and what do ya now, they fix overtime bug you now have scatter gun errors, demo and solly borken, and the huntsman has been nefferd but only people like me would notice that one Tongue
That's my point.

Now I'm not really a programmer, all my experience comes from building databases with MS Access, which is pretty much child's play.
However, I had things happening to me, like I've developed a new feature, stumbled upon an unrelated bug, fixed that, continued to develop the new feature, noticed that didn't work, started from scratch and forgot that there was this bug I had fixed.
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Power


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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2009, 07:32:26 AM »

And my point is: before you release the code when you're done, just play a round of your own damn game. This would save Valve a lot of grief on multiple occasions already. Tongue

I mean I love the support, one thing you don't know is, I was one of the webmasters of halflife.de back in the day and later launched hlportal.de together with a couple of guys - to this day one of the biggest (if not the biggest) german Valve&Steam related fansites. So I'm not a hater, but I feel that the quality Valve is giving out is dropping lately, that is all. Same goes for public relations. I mean... their WRITER is giving most of the interviews for Left 4 Dead 2. "Hahaha look at this you can hit zombies with a cricket bat!!" LOLZ! That really will calm down the flaming public.
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Teatime


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Still rubbish after all these years


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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2009, 09:43:04 AM »

I feel that the quality Valve is giving out is dropping lately, that is all. Same goes for public relations.

Since it appears you have been around a long time I urge you to recall the days of HL and TFC. During that time Valve had no sense for public relations altogether. No official forums, no blog sites. They've come a long way since, and the presentations for the last few class(less) updates have been genius.

As for the complaint about the quality: I have no idea what you are referring to?
Maps? Sure, would wish Valve would release more maps, but we just got a couple of new (or newish) ones. They look great and they play at least okay. Also I figure their map makers might have other things to do than just building TF2 maps (like aforementioned L4D2, but I'm also hoping they are working on HL2E3)
Weapons? Like them or not, but they are looking good. The way they play is a different and much more complicated matter.
Animations? Can you really complain about that?

So please specify where you spot a drop in quality ...
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Power


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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2009, 11:00:04 AM »

Well first, let's go back to my point, because you didn't answer. Would you agree or not, that if Valve playtested their own "final" code before releasing the update, even if it was a couple of KotH rounds - that they would notice the OVERTIME error? Because unless it's related to some obscure server plugins, I don't see how they'd miss it, and as far as I'm aware EVERY server had this problem.
________________________

Okay, you actually go too deep into the detail. But let's go waaaay back if you insist. Let's start with public relations then. Sure, there were no forums, no blog sites - but there were mailing lists for the press (well there still is) and fansites who gave every bit of info to the public. You also could write to just about anyone in the company and would get a reply, long before there was a support wiki or employees dedicated to customer support. I personally had lengthy conversations with Gabe, Erik Johnson, Robin Walker or Jess Cliffe, before they even knew that I was representing a fansite. Sure, now their mailboxes are probably overflowed - not their fault, bear with me. So although there were no official information sources, there were plenty of sources where you could get the official information.

How is it looking now? Official forums, but most of the real information we either get from the interviews (I already mentioned this, Chet Faliszek (sp?) is a funny guy, but he is SO not selling L4D2 to me and no one seems to ask the "evil" questions anymore) or from replies of Valve employees, posted by some random dude on them (valid or not, who knows). I know, it contradicts what I said earlier, that you could get info per mail before, but what's important is - the official forums play no role in it. The answers to these e-mails could have been posted on any other site as well, just as it was done before. This isn't raising a standard in public communications, this is merely keeping up with what every game developer should have in first place.

Official blogs: I love those! But those are hardly a two way street when it comes to communicating. Sure it's a part of PR, but it's not a part of communicating with the community, merely a pinboard for everyone to read, though I have to admit, the blogs are currently the most active source of information we have (not even the "secret" press mailing list has such detail in information, though things are announced there a bit earlier).

Valve messed up a lot, since those earlier days:
- I'm sure you witnessed the problems around the release of HL2? Where Valve lied about the reason for delay, blaming the hacker and what not, the webmaster of planethalflife.com at that time (who did this for years) threw a hissy fit and resigned, because someone from Valve lied to his face or something.

Strangely it was also the time, where Valve was the most verbose. Communicating with about every community site, answering mails within MINUTES, Gabe even registered on our forum for some reason, though he can't speak german. Wink

- How much do you know about Episode 3? The third episode, you know, those thingies which were supposedly faster to make, which is why there is no HL3 yet? Valve never admitted that the episode concept failed apart pretty much after the release of EP1 and though EP2 was much much better, it's not HL3.

- How many employees are posting on the official forums? I counted about 5, there are probably more, but I don't read those forums every day, it's a troll fest. Most of those are in the customer support and technical steam division anyway. There is almost none communication regarding games over the forums.

- What about the price policy in Europe? A lot of people had questions, it is probably the forum thread with the most posts on the steam forums, but there is no, NONE, replys to it from Valve employees. Not even in the sense of "it's not our fault", it just was ignored for months now. Fact is, Steam is not in the least competitive in pricing with most if not all other game sources, be it digital or retail for a long time now.

- I won't start with L4D2, too little is known about the addon game, but the way Valve presented it was a fricking PR desaster.

- There are unpatched games on Steam, games the developers sent the needed files to MONTHS ago. Nothing happens (according to those developers), there is also no statement as to why those games are unpatched and there is no mention whatsoever that you are buying an outdated version (often to the point of incompability or not able to play multiplayer).

- Their official blog has been silent for months at a time

I never really put stuff together like that and it actually seems like a lot now, I wish I didn't. This are just the major PR problems that I remember from the top of my head.

The quality side of this would take too much space, probably, but let me say that I feel that the quality dropped down (not by a lot) since the release of L4D (admittingly, not entirely Valve's game, so maybe not entirely their fault?), but same goes for TF2, which is getting out of balance more and more.

As a heavy you only had to care about snipers and spies before. Now you can get your ass kicked by about anyone:
- scouts can distrupt your crippled as it is movement with a FAN shot or stun you
- pyro can airblast you
- sniper can shoot you with an arrow without you even seeing him
- spy.. yeah he can still kill you, now also with added kritz to the head for the oh so evasive heavy
- solders and demos don't care much and they has to receive their updates yet

Pretty much every class that got an update already got some kind of a weapon against the poor heavy. The heavy got natasha and a frickin sandvich. The spy is basically begging people to kill him using the dead ringer now, instead of trying and sneaking behind them without being noticed and this is about the only game I know, where killing someone doesn't mean you actually killed him. Scout can stun uber, the thing that is supposed to be a tie breaker, which was weakened by the pyro and the scout update to the point, where it is some kind of a gamble if you actually can manage doing anything or not.

This is of course just my opinion, but I play every class about the same amount of time and Valve has been adding or removing the hard counters for almost every class with every class update, changing fundamental game mechanics sometimes.

Oh and there are no demos anymore, for HL1 they even compiled a set of completely different levels to get the idea across. Sure free weekend was an awesome idea, but not having a demo at the same time (at least post release) is just stupid - speaking of PR again, though not only Valve is making this mistake (because of the piracy apparently).

Now I might sound like a whiney bitch, but I'm not. Let's just say that until now, I bought every game (and preordered them if I could) on release. With L4D2 I'm not so sure. I have several hunderds of hours of TF2 playtime. L4D I only played through every campaign a couple of times and a couple of versus games, that's it. I love the setting, but the execution doesn't catch me in a way TF2 does. So this is the first time, I'm considering not buying a Valve game since... uhm... what, 11 years? (Yeah, I even have Blue Shift Wink)


P.S. Holy shit, this is a massive wall of text. Sorry, but you asked.

TL;DR: I'm a whiney complainer bitch, who will crumble and buy everything Valve produces anyway.
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Junta
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2009, 12:02:38 PM »

LOL Power - dump those thoughts down mate Smiley

Possible contributor to the Fort 2 Teatime? He makes a few interesting points regarding quality and the perception of a reduction over time! Smiley
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Junta
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2009, 12:05:01 PM »

So please specify where you spot a drop in quality ...
For me its the bugs that get introduced. I'm a devleoper, I know that nothing can be perfect, but I also expect my users to tear me a new arse if I give them something that is so obviously broken in a couple of ways. This comment *still* applies even if the bugs aren't catastrophic - my users would quite rightly have a say - they did after all, pay for the software.

Same applies to users with Valve. We did pay - we have a say (even a whine).
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Nineblade
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2009, 12:10:50 PM »

You made me google "unicum" Sad
Without googling, I'd hazzard a guess that it's a generic term for Jizz that applies to boys n gurlz Wink
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