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December 2025

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[Teatime]

I realize we have some damn good spies on the server which are probably above average, but TBH I feel like by now the engy really needs a bit of an additional edge to deal with spies. Right now I think the balance between those two classes are a bit off.
I'm the first to admit that tighter teamwork might alleviate the problem a bit, but then again it's not unusual for an engy to work a bit behind the actual frontline where he his very vulnerable against spies (especially while building his stuff).

I don't really have a good idea how this should be achieved, certainly it would have to be in a way which still gives the spy a fair chance to attack engy and buildings.

Opinions? (As if I had to ask ... )

[DeadlyAvenger]

Hmm, I know one thing for sure is that since the spy update, playing engineer has sucked a LOT. All the spy has to do is land a backstab on the engi and that's it - all his hard work gone. The fact the sapper has no recharge rate also means that the spy can just spam the goods and hitting each thing twice makes it very tight for saving all your buildings.

Maybe allowing the spy to spam-sap only one building at a time. i.e. he wants to sap the sentry, he can sap the sentry as many times as he likes, but if he tries to sap something else he has to wait. this would allow him to remove lone buildings, but prevent him from destroying EVERYTHING in one go.

another option would be for sappers to be on timers i.e. they run out of batteries (just above the level required to destroy a level 2/3 sentry) leaving it critically damaged, but still functioning after the sapper disappears. this means a spy can either finish it off with the revolver, or another class can destroy it.

ooooorrr how about the sapper disables a sentry, but doesn't destroy it. this means that more teamwork is required once the sapper is placed to destroy the building.

a few quick ideas I thought of.

an unskilled demo can take out a sentry, an unskilled soldier can take out a sentry at range, a reasonably skilled pyro can take out a sentry at close range, an average spy can take out a sentry singlehanded

almost any (if not all) class with an uber can take out a sentry. and almost any class in combination with another class can take out a sentry.

[Ringelbeatz]

I don't think that there will be any big changes for spies.

Maybe a tool that allows the engie to leave his sentry for 20 secs.
In this time the sg can't get sabbed.

or a spy sonar....

[Brahms]

Uber Soldier vs Sentry that is being repaired is actually quite hard work and often fails.

I don't really see how spy has changed to become more of a threat to engies, tbh. The headshots from the ambassador? Functional backstabs?

[CruelCow]

I think you're exaggerating a little deadly. A well placed sentry can only be killed by an über or a spy and both can be made extremely hard (or next to impossible) by a single pyro.

However I DO hope the engi update gives him something to leave his sentry alone for more then a second or makes him more offensive.
I'm actually pretty surprised the engi update hasn't been done yet, since IMHO sentry killing is one of the things that really has improved over time, similar to spy checking.

[egg]

The problem is not with the spies or the engis.....

Its the scripts.

When an engi has a level 3 SG up the spy SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STAB THE ENGI AND THEN SAP THE SG WITHOUT BEING KILLED.

Level 1 and 2 yes but not 3.

[Teatime]

Hmm, the idea of giving the sappers a charge is not bad (like a charge is good for 3 sappings and it takes x seconds to recharge), but that would be an adjustment on the spy's end.

Actually I don't think there should be something which protects the buildings while the engy's away (for one this is still the best chance for the novice spies, also an engy really should have to look after his stuff).

[Millicent Bystander]

I think the problem is worse on our server because we have some damn good spies.  I have given playing an engineer a miss for a while purely because the WDG & regs are getting way too good at countering sentry towers.

However I have, in the last week or so started playing engi again and whilst spys succeed in sapping my sentry far more than they used to I have delivered my share of wrenchings.  You just can't leave your sentry unattended now.

I'd like to see the engi given something to set spies on fire or heat detecting goggles.  Failing that a minigun that fires naplam rockets 

[Carnage]

This may sound stupid but how about the engi being able to put an anti sapper or cloak on them but using it means they are disabled until the engi removes it??

[DeadlyAvenger]

This may sound stupid but how about the engi being able to put an anti sapper or cloak on them but using it means they are disabled until the engi removes it??

Another thought I had along those lines would be that spies can only have a maximum number of sappers - like the scouts ball: once they have used it on a building...either the building is destroyed and the spy has to go and pick up the sapper or if the engineer doesn't destroy it - rather blows it off so the spy has to go back and collect it.

[Junta]

One simple answer (for me) is to prevent a backstab whilst standing on someone's head. That's just complete B/S to be honest.

I see engineers die when they keep their back to the wall and the spy jumps on them for the kill

The problem is not with the spies or the engis.....

Its the scripts.

When an engi has a level 3 SG up the spy SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STAB THE ENGI AND THEN SAP THE SG WITHOUT BEING KILLED.

Level 1 and 2 yes but not 3.

Agreed, except that I think the script should be banned entirely tbh. The script should not automate something that is impossible via plain old human hands.

[CruelCow]

The problem is not with the spies or the engis.....

Its the scripts.

When an engi has a level 3 SG up the spy SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STAB THE ENGI AND THEN SAP THE SG WITHOUT BEING KILLED.

Level 1 and 2 yes but not 3.

The time where you needed scripts (or very good timing) to do that has gone since valve changed the backstab animation

[BarryAv]

One simple answer (for me) is to prevent a backstab whilst standing on someone's head. That's just complete B/S to be honest.

I see engineers die when they keep their back to the wall and the spy jumps on them for the kill

Valve freely admit that the backstab code is messed up.  They supposedly fixed facestabs a while back, but coding with network delay and all sorts of other crazy factors is bizarre.

Engineers already have something to deal with spies anyway, it's called "the wrench with a 100% bloody crit rate ^tm".  I don't see anything wrong with the balance, except for when it comes to teleporters.  It's easy pickings for a spy to cloak behind enemy lines and take out a teleporter, especially on large maps like badwater.  Having a teleport that vaporises a spy when he tries to use or sap it might be an idea, also the maximum number of saps per second/limited amount of sappers is a good idea.  Where exactly does he keep those things in his razor sharp pinstripe suit anyway? 

[Brahms]

The problem is not with the spies or the engis.....

Its the scripts.

When an engi has a level 3 SG up the spy SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STAB THE ENGI AND THEN SAP THE SG WITHOUT BEING KILLED.

Level 1 and 2 yes but not 3.

The time where you needed scripts (or very good timing) to do that has gone since valve changed the backstab animation

Yeah, I never had to use a script to pull that groovy shennanigan. Even pre backstab revamp it was doable without a script, it's still tricky though, if the sentry happens to have rotated too far towards you you're toast, or if your circle strafing away from it is impeded in any way, you'll get iced.

I don't see what the problem is, I mean has base defence become a lot harder or something lately? There isn't some bulletproof solution to anything in the game, ubers can get stunned, cloaks get pissed on, flames get back burnered out, you aren't invincible when you have kritzkrieg, you can get shot when you use the razorback etc etc.

Then again, I don't play engy.

I think taking away the ability to sap spam would really take away a key team play aspect of the spy though, and make him more of a lone ranger, operating however he wants whenever he wants instead of occasionally throwing himself selflessly into helping destroy a sentry farm.

I think more likely the engineer's problem is the fact that the chances of seeing a pyro on your team are slim to none these days, and that really takes a bite out of the ability to spy check.

[Junta]

I have to agree there tbh,

Stopping spies from sapping things will remove the team play element. Teleporter takedowns are essential on the larger maps and the spy can win it for his team if he slows re-enforcements for long enough. As a heavy, I know that when I have to run, the enemy has more time to re-group and is more likely to kill me quicker in force. An example is stage 3 of Goldrush, and of course not to mention Badwater.

If you demote the sapping element of the spy then he's simply an assassain, nothing more. You can forget playing for the team.

I note that good demo men are also to blame for a high number of sentry takedowns (more so than spy I think). And you know what, good defending Pyros can *really* screw up an attacking demo man with uber. I point out Hex, Papa and CruelCow as prime examples of annoying Pyros who disrupt uber attacks with the air blaster. The same pyros also spy check but that leads me on to the bloody dead ringer!

I hate the bloody thing, and its giving spies a massive edge tbh. I find I'm killing people 1,2, 3 or even 4 times and *still* getting back stabbed. Only the pyro can cock it up with continual flame (but even then the flame damage seems massively diminished!).

There... *deep breath*