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[Teatime]

PS: I've almost forgotten: Something should be done about the battlements. Not sure exactly what, but the current design (incl. the roof over the bridge) is BS. It would be great to change it so it discourages sniper wars (but still give snipers the chance to intercept incoming heavy classes on the bridge ... basically exactly the opposite of what it is now).

I think some way for the slower classes to get up there quicker? like a ramp?

No!
Slow classes = heavy classes, and it makes sense to make their route harder.
Right now only scouts can get on the battlements easy, soldier and demo only with health trade-off. That should remain that way, it's a good balance.
My gripes with the battlements is the following: Snipers should have a clear view on the bridge to make it harder for slow/heavy classes to cross over (which encourages using medium and fast classes for attack). The flaw since day one was that snipers on the battlements would cancel each other out (=sniper wars). And since the TF2-version now has the roof over the bridge (IMO created as travel route for the scout) snipers can't even cover the bridge any longer.

This creates multiple problems:
If you remove the roof how do scouts get up to the battlements? One possible, yet flawed solution: Create crates (etc) in front of each base to enable the scout to reach the battlements via doublejump. Flawed because that way the scout still has to cross the bridge and might get hurt or killed.
So ideally you would have an alternate route which only scouts can travel without being exposed to the immediate fighting on the bridge. For a moment I was toying with the idea of pipes leading from one fort to the other which scouts could use, but still wouldn't block the view of the snipers. Would probably look ugly, though
Ideally snipers would not be able to shoot each other, or at least with more difficulty, so they can concentrate more on the bridge. Unless you rearrange that area (some maps did it by displacing both forts so they don't face each other) the only idea I would have would be to have something blocking the upper part of the bridge area. Perhaps pipes leading across. If it was a different design I could image something as silly as a rope with laundry doing the job.

Oh, and one thing which always bugged me a bit was the placement/exits of the respawns. As defender it's always a pain in the ass if you spawn in the right respawn (with the exit to the battlements) after being killed in the basement since it takes far too long to get back (especially annoying since it's random where you respawn).
I think this could deserve some subtle tweaking as well (but have no good idea in which way).

[DeadlyAvenger]

You're focussing a LOT here on scouts? What about the other lighter classes? Pyro for example. What if the team doesn't have any scouts? You only want 2-3 scouts MAX on a team so what about the other classes?

[AmS]

lots of stuff here....

No!
Slow classes = heavy classes, and it makes sense to make their route harder.
Right now only scouts can get on the battlements easy, soldier and demo only with health trade-off. That should remain that way, it's a good balance.

actually i was thinking about placing a healthkit in the center of the roof to encourage more soldiers and demos to get up there, they will still need to sacrifice  health again if they would like to reach the balcony

My gripes with the battlements is the following: Snipers should have a clear view on the bridge to make it harder for slow/heavy classes to cross over (which encourages using medium and fast classes for attack). The flaw since day one was that snipers on the battlements would cancel each other out (=sniper wars). And since the TF2-version now has the roof over the bridge (IMO created as travel route for the scout) snipers can't even cover the bridge any longer.

agree, i want to create some hole in the roof (if it is somehow possible, im still a big noob in this stuff), so the sniper could see atleast some part of the bridge

This creates multiple problems:
If you remove the roof how do scouts get up to the battlements? One possible, yet flawed solution: Create crates (etc) in front of each base to enable the scout to reach the battlements via doublejump. Flawed because that way the scout still has to cross the bridge and might get hurt or killed.
So ideally you would have an alternate route which only scouts can travel without being exposed to the immediate fighting on the bridge. For a moment I was toying with the idea of pipes leading from one fort to the other which scouts could use, but still wouldn't block the view of the snipers. Would probably look ugly, though

i would leave the roof in place, it would be painfull for people crossing the brudge without any cover, a good sniper could kill them all

Ideally snipers would not be able to shoot each other, or at least with more difficulty, so they can concentrate more on the bridge. Unless you rearrange that area (some maps did it by displacing both forts so they don't face each other) the only idea I would have would be to have something blocking the upper part of the bridge area. Perhaps pipes leading across. If it was a different design I could image something as silly as a rope with laundry doing the job.

as a sniper i think that it would be better if the snipers could take out themself more quickly so they could pay more attention to other classes. I would like to make less sniper spot so that you wont need to be so much paranoid about which side will the enemy snipers come from. (im trying to fix this by blocking one balcony)

Oh, and one thing which always bugged me a bit was the placement/exits of the respawns. As defender it's always a pain in the ass if you spawn in the right respawn (with the exit to the battlements) after being killed in the basement since it takes far too long to get back (especially annoying since it's random where you respawn).

agree again, though i also have no idea how to fix this yet.

Ok so this is my plan, i will make the map with the intel placed as on the picture in first post and then try to make something with the sewers. The first one is almost done, i only need to somehow fix water reflections (water surface is purple now) and maybe do some holes in the roof.
I think this could deserve some subtle tweaking as well (but have no good idea in which way).

[Millicent Bystander]

How about having stairs/ passageway from the sewers to where the intel is at the moment, that way you have the threat of a rearward attack.

[Teatime]

You're focussing a LOT here on scouts? What about the other lighter classes? Pyro for example. What if the team doesn't have any scouts? You only want 2-3 scouts MAX on a team so what about the other classes?

Actually I consider the Pyro being a medium class.
Light is scout, medic, spy and engy. Engy has no place as open offense, medic should team up with a medium/heavy class and the spy obviously has his own means.

The chokepoints are there for a purpose, but they are simply not done well. You don't want an open access to the battlements because for one you introduce huge problems with (partially valid) respawn camping and you demote the ramproom to a backdoor obscurity. So restricting access to the battlements makes sense.

The major problem with 2Fort (when not played as DM) is that for the most part you can defend it in the ramproom, with a respawn and resupply close by. Once you force a team to protect the basement because there's another entrance they will either have to spread their D (layered defense) or concentrate on the basement alone (which has a much smaller chance of success).

How about having stairs/ passageway from the sewers to where the intel is at the moment, that way you have the threat of a rearward attack.

I think an additional exit route would be a bad idea. Since the respawns are too far away D has almost no chance to recover the intel once it's out through that route.  IMO this should be a one-way route only.

[AmS]

ok, the map is ready.....sort of, i only need to compile it and build cubemaps (probably during the night), i just need one more opinion....
i placed a small health kit on the roof above the bridge, but i'm still not sure about it, so should it stay there or no? or should it even be a medium one?

[CruelCow]

Small one sounds right, but let playtesting decide specifics.

Another thing: I've seen some other modified 2fort versions (but never played them). Did you have a look at them?

[mode_seven]

ok, the map is ready.....sort of, i only need to compile it and build cubemaps (probably during the night), i just need one more opinion....
i placed a small health kit on the roof above the bridge, but i'm still not sure about it, so should it stay there or no? or should it even be a medium one?

Firstly, good man, putting in cube maps properly is a good habit to get into as I understand.

In my opinion, the medkit above the bridge isn't really necessary. Both Demoman and Soldiers can jump to the enemies balcony without needing an intermediate jump onto the bridge. The Demoman from his own balcony and the Soldier from the ground below.

[AmS]

Small one sounds right, but let playtesting decide specifics.

Another thing: I've seen some other modified 2fort versions (but never played them). Did you have a look at them?

no, but i hope there is not a map like this one, so that all the work woudnt be pointless 

[Teatime]

Small one sounds right, but let playtesting decide specifics.

Another thing: I've seen some other modified 2fort versions (but never played them). Did you have a look at them?

no, but i hope there is not a map like this one, so that all the work woudnt be pointless 

Bah, it's never pointless.
If anything it's a stepping stone towards the Best-Map-In-The-World (by Tenacious AmS).

[AmS]

lol, thx but it may also end up like this

Bah, it's never pointless.
If anything it's a stepping stone towards the Worst-Map-In-The-World (by Tenacious AmS).

there's not so many changes and they are very amateurish, but i think it could really improve gameplay a bit

[Ringelbeatz]

Bah, it's never pointless.
If anything it's a stepping stone towards the Best-Map-In-The-World (by Tenacious AmS).

Nice one T.
This is not the greatest map in the world, no, this is just a tribute

[AmS]

okay, here we go, first version of 2Fort Reloaded

Download

screens:


list of changes:
- inteligence moved to the area on the right from main spawn
- removed basements
- blocked balcony closer to the main spawn
- added several medkits and ammo boxes

possible future changes:
- block the entrance to battlements from second spawn
- bridge roof alteration (still clueless how to make this)


Dont expect any masterpiece, it's rather pretty amateur work, but that could be improved in the future if gameplay would be better.

[Finaldeath]

I think just from seeing the location of the intelligence, I perceive it'll be problematic having it so close to a enemy spawn location, certainly in a fast-respawn server like WDG has

Anyway, it needs testing, perhaps we can do this on server 2?

[Marenghi]

maybe the spawn room furtherest away from the intelligence can be solely used, if that's possible and i would like to see this on server 2 for testing as well