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My CommunityForumGamingTeam Fortress 2Topic: Class limits - Server 1
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Teatime


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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 11:48:34 PM »

I'm of the mind that it's just when a lot of bad players play a lot of the same class it can go wrong

I doubt that. I think a equally skilled team featuring a good mixture of classes will beat a team primarily composed of one class most of the time. (Unless I'm wrong and the whole class system is pointless and just exists for entertainment purposes)
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Brahms
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2009, 07:33:05 AM »

I think it depends on the class teatime. A team consisting purely of spies, sure, they'll lose. But what about a team of nothing but heavies? Or only soldiers?
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Teatime


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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2009, 09:24:24 AM »

I think it depends on the class teatime. A team consisting purely of spies, sure, they'll lose. But what about a team of nothing but heavies? Or only soldiers?
The lack of medics alone makes this team so vulnerable against ubers and pyros. Depending on the map spies and snipers would have a field day against heavies.
Soldiers and demos would be tougher, true, but if you aim consequently at those classes' weaknesses I think it should be possible.
Hell, we could try it out one day ...
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2009, 09:58:50 AM »

Hell, we could try it out one day ...

that would own

as well as another custom map melee only night
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2009, 10:34:12 AM »

Well, the only reason that it might not work is that I don't know how many people have a decent amount of experience playing soldier ( I know I can't play demo to save my life )

But a pure soldier team doesn't have any explicit weaknesses, not like pyro-spy sniper-heavy style weaknesses anyway. The only thing that would cause a big problem for pure soldier team would be a few well constructed heavy/medic pairs.

I certainly think it should be tried though.
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Finaldeath


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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2009, 12:22:30 PM »

Brahms is right, and even more so, I didn't talk about all the team being one class, don't be so silly. My points still stand, a varied team with a certain class being extremely used sometimes fits the situation, in the examples I provided.
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Finaldeath
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2009, 12:41:16 PM »

Depends if it was attack or defence ; on attack a pure soldier team would probably struggle without medics. I've seen pure demo teams used on defence with lots of success, but demo has been nerfed a touch since then.

And the class system probably derived from variety rather than any attempt to balance the game, because it's not particularly balanced - certain configurations are clearly much stronger than others. I mean, if you see three pyros/demos and three medics on their attack out of the gate and they're not total idiots, chances are the first point is in trouble.
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Teatime


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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2009, 04:26:05 PM »

I didn't talk about all the team being one class, don't be so silly.
You didn't. Brahms did. I responded to Brahms.

On a general note: What layouts are featured in high level clan matches?
I wonder because if high concentrations of few classes work so well I expect that to be used in those matches all the time (with variations depending on the maps)
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Hzza
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2009, 04:31:06 PM »

Generally 6 vs 6 (which is what the leagues play) is made up of 2 scouts, 2 sollys, a demo and a medic, and they're played on 5 point CP maps (badlands, fastlane and freight are the most common I believe).
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mark
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2009, 04:33:00 PM »

On a general note: What layouts are featured in high level clan matches?
I wonder because if high concentrations of few classes work so well I expect that to be used in those matches all the time (with variations depending on the maps)
There is a one medic limit in most matches (I know of anyways), so in general they'd use one medic, and then I think it's two class limit on everything else, and I hear they don't use spies or heavies.

Oh and maybe they have limit on engineers too (1)
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2009, 04:33:16 PM »

Well in the wireplay leagues its restricted to:
-two of each class
-1 demoman, 1 medic
(and no scout achievement weapons at one point).

So its not possible to have the majority of the team playing a certain class, as it would be a breach of the league rules.
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Junta
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2009, 04:47:01 PM »

Well, the only reason that it might not work is that I don't know how many people have a decent amount of experience playing soldier ( I know I can't play demo to save my life )

But a pure soldier team doesn't have any explicit weaknesses, not like pyro-spy sniper-heavy style weaknesses anyway. The only thing that would cause a big problem for pure soldier team would be a few well constructed heavy/medic pairs.

I certainly think it should be tried though.
Packs of soldiers do cause trouble for heavies.. even with a medic (its a range thing you see).

Chuck a pyro in at close range and things get better for me as a heavy.. kill assists against soldiers aren't high for me, and its good to have the buggers on fire first Wink
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Junta
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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2009, 04:56:15 PM »

I remind again the fact that these limits *have not been noticed* in over 7 weeks of being introduced on server 1 (maybe I remember ONE person noticed in the clan). In view of that, they're not really an issue. Server 2 remains free for experimental rushes of the same class if that is what people want to do.

Dave and I have listened to people's frustration around dogdy class choices in game, we've seen it sour a few games and its not fun. That's why we have the limits. We listened, we acted.

don't be so silly
Teatime's response wasn't that and all points of view are valid here despite differences of opinion on the matter.
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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2009, 08:17:16 PM »

So (and sorry if I continue derailing ... tell me to stop if I should) leagues impose class limits?
Peculiar. Why, if I may ask?
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Finaldeath


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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2009, 10:32:32 PM »

Because obviously having all one class can easily break an unprepared team, as we have said, there are advantages for that kind of surprise or unbalance if you know what the other team consists of. I could find a few textbook words to describe it, but the most common might be, I think, "cheap".

Sorry for thinking you were referring to me before in any way.

Junta - several clan members noticed at once, remember? That was weeks ago. Yes, it was at a point of wanting to do 4 engineers (shockingly to build each others stuff in a smaller game), but has cropped up since then (like I mentioned). In big games, 13 players is a lot and you might well see the need for 4 or more of a class, even the ones you chose to limit.

Of course, in a clan game, 2 class limits on 6 team sides make much more sense - since this is 33% - taking that number into 13 players gives us 4 minimum, and given the 13 players means many classes are likely to be played more then once, even more then twice, 4 might not be so uncommon to reach.

But in any case, I've put forward my arguments against this Wink In addition - surely if people hadn't noticed, it's a bad thing - they'll be quite surprised to see it in place for the very few times it occurs - and that if it was a more serious limit of 2, you'd actually have people complaining actively since they would hit it more often?

I mean, you could sidle in class limits of 10 each, who would notice them? Saying then, that class limits are a good thing because no one noticed them being in effect is kind of against the point of having them in the first place - they are there to actively stop people playing a class, therefore, they should be the most noticeable of limits, and if not, then either the number is too low (and so no one would ever have that many of that class), or not necessary (no one ever gets to that number thus it isn't required for the very minor amount of cases - in the lowest of digits - that an admin can't just come in and sort out, or in fact, encourage if it is a fun set of amount to play)

I also take issue with the fact scouts are not class limited, despite being, for all intents and purposes, more of a utility class then the engineer and sniper (who have actual massive point scores, and team contributions, despite being loners) scouts are just loners who jump around a lot, and are a bit more "obvious" I'd have thought to limit. I'm generalising here, but you can find a lot of the time if you find a team half-full of scouts, that team will lose, and lose badly, especially if on defence.

Oh, unless the point is to reward the one strategy of "scout rush" but not allow for the "engineer defence" or the "sniper defence"...I'm very confused on that point.
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Finaldeath
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My CommunityForumGamingTeam Fortress 2Topic: Class limits - Server 1
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