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December 2025

Mo	Tu	We	Th	Fr	Sa	Su
1	2	3	4	5	6	7
8	9	10	11	12	13	14
15	16	17	18	19	20	21
22	23	24	25	26	27	28
29	30	31

[Teatime]

Applauded (and thanks!)
Will give it the proper attention once my brain stops being mushy from today's work. 

[Officer Dibble]

Applauded for awesomeness Basinstoked, i've played a fair amount of (vaguely) competitive TF2 and would never have thought of all that by myself.

[Gasman]

Note to Rip: new Roger. Single largest forum post! Contendor? Come on Tea, do your worst???!!!

[Teatime]

Thank you (again), Basingstoked.

Very comprehensive and logical. And actually it all makes sense.
Still I find it a tad arbitrary. Basically the leagues went, carved out a part of the game which suits their idea of competitiveness and threw the rest in the dumpster.

One of my stupid comparisons: It's like they put soccer, decided to play with 8 instead of 11 players and shorten the field to 75%. (Yeah, the comparison sucks. If I knew anything about sports I might come up with a better one)

Why don't they play CTF (except, apparently, Turbine on occasion). Granted, Well and 2Fort are not exactly good maps, but still could be played competitively. Before you point out the chokepoints of 2Fort and how easily those can be defended: Remember you'd have to do this with 3 or 4 players tops, because you also have your offense. In CTF immediately classes like the Engy or the Heavy and even the Pyro become valuable as defensive classes.
Well of course is probably to big for 6vs6 (but might play with 8vs8)

And while I understand that the importance of an even playing field favours symmetrical CP maps:
Why not play asymmetrical OvsD maps in a 2-round-competition?

(Yikes, have to stop here. 'm getting late for work )

[Magathery]

Good point Gas. Realy tearing through the year. It will soon be time for the next anual Rodgering. I've been thinking about making a couple of changes to the awards, changing the categories and what not. Also going for a blind vote next time.

Sorry for the hijack

[[HAM]Fisted]

5) The twin medic / uber thing. When medics want to play at running round ubersawing people to get uber continuously. Utterly pointless at helping the team tbh...

This is fun if you can pull it off but the problem is if your team want to be serious then really you should be ubering a heavy of someone else. i think this has its place but not when the server is busy and everyone wants to have a proper game.

Also i know this is from an epicly old post but it caught my eye as a thing you don't normally see. I agree with all the other stuff junta said

Thank you (again), Basingstoked.

Very comprehensive and logical. And actually it all makes sense.
Still I find it a tad arbitrary. Basically the leagues went, carved out a part of the game which suits their idea of competitiveness and threw the rest in the dumpster.

One of my stupid comparisons: It's like they put soccer, decided to play with 8 instead of 11 players and shorten the field to 75%. (Yeah, the comparison sucks. If I knew anything about sports I might come up with a better one)

Why don't they play CTF (except, apparently, Turbine on occasion). Granted, Well and 2Fort are not exactly good maps, but still could be played competitively. Before you point out the chokepoints of 2Fort and how easily those can be defended: Remember you'd have to do this with 3 or 4 players tops, because you also have your offense. In CTF immediately classes like the Engy or the Heavy and even the Pyro become valuable as defensive classes.
Well of course is probably to big for 6vs6 (but might play with 8vs8)

And while I understand that the importance of an even playing field favours symmetrical CP maps:
Why not play asymmetrical OvsD maps in a 2-round-competition?

(Yikes, have to stop here. 'm getting late for work )

I think it should be 7vs7 which forces another class as the 2 members per class excluding demo and medic means the final player must play another class which adds a new element. 6v6 means the only classes that are viable in competitive play are solly,scout,demo and medic. yes you can use a heavy on the last cap at badlands but realisticly you still want 2 scouts, 2 sodliers, 1 demo and a medic otherwise you don't have the speed the team needs. who do you sacrifice for a heavy? you can't. With 7vs7 the final player must adapt with these less effective classes and use them at the right time.

I think one of the reasons for it not being 7vs7 is that these less effective classes can not travel with the team as the rest of the team move around at really fast pace with their rocket and stiky jumping so this would force the team to slow down which would mean the scouts could not rush in because their support would take even longer to arrive. It would upset that fast pace in cp maps which i think is what makes 6vs6 attractive where some games can go fowards and backwards for minutes without a final point cap.

Overal i still think i would prefer the 7vs7 style of match because i do like the tactical challenge of fitting in that final class because deffinatly if you can sneak a pyro behind a team or get a heavy into the fight it will shift the balence of play. It just seems to me more interesting than 2scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo and a medic!

[TheBeau]

Sure you could defend 2fort with a couple engies, but when the time comes to push the advantage, now what?

The major problem with the engie is that he is a one trick pony. Offensively, he is absolutely useless and although you can argue he protects the team from marauding scouts and spies, neither will be stupid enough to walk out in front of a sentry they can hear from miles away. Say you take down the medic on mid in Well CP, your engie was setup on the second point because you initially lost mid. Now what's he going to? He could run up and build a tele or a sentry, but the other team is gonna hear him saying 'Sentry going up!' and send in a scout or demo to finish him. He's also useless as a standalone fighter, the scout will absolutely dominate him when he's not behind his sentry. This is why the engineer will never be popular in competitive games. His role is laid out in iron and will not bend to fit the situation. There is little to no flair involved in his game and this means the skill ceiling of the class is low and, a recurrent theme I know, this invalids him from competitive play. After all, why be have a stationary class who can't retreat or attack effectively, when a demoman can do his job, and attack at the same time? This is especially true on ctf maps. Although personally I think he is not a good class, he is sometimes used to defend points with his sentry in competitive games athough I don't know enough about it to comment on effectivness.

2Fort pubs make great use of engies heavies and pyros, but competitively? I highlighted why the classes normally chosen are used but I forgot to mention why others aren't used. (Already explained the egie, I should've thought about planning)

Pyro: Same health as the demoman, has a hitscan weapon but scouts will STILL take him down. He may kill one because of the afterburn, but this seems unlikely as a good team will get the medic there in time. Against soldiers, his airblast is useful but ineffectual against good soldiers who will not allow him the opportunity. Against ubers, again the airblast is useful, but what good is stalling the uber for a few seconds when he is bound to die anyway? Those 15-20 seconds left in respawn time hurt the team more than those few seconds he stalls the enemy team. Besides, a soldier or a scout can buy the medic enough time to escape. You may think he has a chance against a demoman, but again he can easily be taken down in two pipes. The pyro is a weak class all around in my opinion and only gets kills because of the afterburn. This being said, he is supposedly very good at attacking the final point on gravelpit because he can just airblast the soldiers and demomen off the point. This is why he is seldom used in competitive games. Regardless of map choice.

Heavy: He still has his place in competitive teams. I think he is used more in Europe than in NA but personally I think he is a very weak class competitively. His damage at mid and long range is laughable. He is a sitting duck when not revving. He is the slowest class in the game and therefore useless at chasing down the enemy medic. However, defensively, he is a strong class. My personal gripe is that he is, sorry for the repetition, a one trick pony. Offensively, his slow speed and revving is going to mean that he can't protect the medic from blindside scout attacks, he can't protect the medic from rjing soldiers, he can't retreat in good order to get health and he can't manouevre to the high ground without wasting time. In my opinion he is only used on the final cap to repel attackers, where he does have his merits. Again, his role is laid out in iron, defense, which makes him unpopular with competitive teams who need to adapt to the situation, something the heavy cannot. These flaws are apparent, regardless of map choice.

TLDR Version: Soldiers, Scouts and Demomen are the best damage classes with the highest skill ceilings. Other classes cannot compare to them in the hands of skilled players.

As for 'throwing the rest in the dumpster' I don't think that's true. With the evolution of the competitive scene, these classes are being made worse simply by better tactics and understanding. There's no rule saying no spies, no pyros no engineers, but the players know these classes are useless under the circumstances. Additionally I don't think the leagues made many if any decisions when it came to gameplay. It was the players who knew best that carved these rules and guidelines.

They do play a single O/D map, Gravelpit. This is because it offers excellent vertical control battles, multiple routes to each point and is nicely balanced for both teams. Now compare this to spambowl, and no Offensive manouevering will work, even uber will just be countered and negated.

As for why CTF Maps aren't played, I don't really know. Perhaps the gameplay doesn't cater to competitive teams because of the inability to return the intel back to base. For instance if the enemy scout dies outside his own spawn with the intel it's pretty much a free cap. Perhaps if someone were willing to experiment and give feedback on just quite why 2fort (or ctf in general) is a bad map to play, then maybe it would make more sense.

@Fisted:

Sure you could try and fit an extra class in, but what's the point? Eventually someone will figure out the best class for that slot, (looking at sniper), and everyone will see it's effectiveness and jump on it. The problem is the classes aren't balanced for competitive play and trying to offer variety is just not going to work. These classes are chosen because of their raw effectiveness with skilled hands. I said it before in my gargantuan post, that variety is offered by tactics and personal play, have you ever played 6v6 competitvely? I don't mean that in a rude way, I am just unsure if you understand the gameplay, it is extremely interesting. The high competition level medic mind games are extraordinary! Although I would suggest experimenting with both 7v7 and other variants, I cannot imagine in the time that has gone by since tf2 has been played competitively, that someone has not mentioned this idea and that someone has not discounted it due to whatever reason they have.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that 6v6 is THE best line-up according to the people who know best and therefore I don't think I have any authority to suggest shaking it up until I have experience in it.

EDIT: I think this post is longer!? (I've got that Rodger in the bag)

[[HAM]Fisted]

Sure you could defend 2fort with a couple engies, but when the time comes to push the advantage, now what?

@Fisted:

Sure you could try and fit an extra class in, but what's the point? Eventually someone will figure out the best class for that slot, (looking at sniper), and everyone will see it's effectiveness and jump on it. The problem is the classes aren't balanced for competitive play and trying to offer variety is just not going to work. These classes are chosen because of their raw effectiveness with skilled hands. I said it before in my gargantuan post, that variety is offered by tactics and personal play, have you ever played 6v6 competitvely? I don't mean that in a rude way, I am just unsure if you understand the gameplay, it is extremely interesting. The high competition level medic mind games are extraordinary! Although I would suggest experimenting with both 7v7 and other variants, I cannot imagine in the time that has gone by since tf2 has been played competitively, that someone has not mentioned this idea and that someone has not discounted it due to whatever reason they have.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that 6v6 is THE best line-up according to the people who know best and therefore I don't think I have any authority to suggest shaking it up until I have experience in it.

EDIT: I think this post is longer!? (I've got that Rodger in the bag)

Yes i have played in a few 6vs6 and my post was really in response to teatime stating why 6vs6 and as i said it was mainly because it fits perfectly with that class layout. I love 6vs6 because of the quick pace and the tactics you can employ i was just trying to suggest a way of geting other classes into competitive play because it would be nice to see that. The thing is everyone assumes 6vs6 is the optimal class setting but maybe its just been accepted and not enough people have challenged it. Just because people play it does not mean its the best but then again they could be right and its the best mode. it certainly seems a good game in terms of balence i am just disapointed how only 5 out of the 9 classes are represented in competitive play. It may be false hope to see more classes but hey in the end tf2 is still fun.

On a side note i play scout for HAM and its much more enjoyable than scouting in a public server where you get pwned really easily. scouts are much more deadly in competive play.

on a note on the side of the note that was the side note for the post while HAM does not play at a high standard in terms of 6vs6 I still understand the possibly strats that can be employed and i only wish i could be skilled enough to use them

[Junta]

on a note on the side of the note that was the side note for the post while HAM does not play at a high standard in terms of 6vs6

Lies, you guys were excellent in some of the 6 v 6 games we played

[LtMama]

Lies, you guys were excellent in some of the 6 v 6 games we played

Agreed, but I think he meant in terms of actual competitive play. For instance generally we'd be considered low, maybe medium at best.

The "high" skill standards are those playing in the upper divisions of ladders etc (I assume that's what you meant Fisted?)

[[HAM]Fisted]

Yes Mama you hit the nail bang on there. I ment we are childs play compared with real competitive sides we are just a scrim side realisticly who play for fun.

[Junta]

Yes I know.

My comment stemmed from the psychological need not to admit that I myself am well below par in the competitive scheme of things!

[Nineblade]

Our clan leaders know how to massage egos as well as penises

[Junta]

Our clan leaders know how to massage egos as well as penises

Well nine, we'd massage yours mate but we're having trouble finding it. Can you help?

[Nineblade]

Our clan leaders know how to massage egos as well as penises

Well nine, we'd massage yours mate but we're having trouble finding it. Can you help?

I like to make things nice and convenient John... my ego's in my underpants along with my  tiny nob