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[mode_seven]

Plus drunkeness is totally stepping on the Demoman's toes.

[[ZiiP] Lazzars]

what valve said with the heavy update stuff (if you bothered reading their drivel about how to think of an update) is that they wanted something that didn't overpower the class and didn't step on the toes or negate the roles of another class. all new unlocks have cons to balance out a pro that needs balancing.

the heavy needed the sandvich to help make him playable without a medic constantly in tow. does the sniper ever have a medic in tow that often? does he need to be given that sort of an advantage against attackers?

[SkyeSlipstream]

@Chaos: Yeah, that makes more sense. A coffee cup would be better. I just assumed I should support some kind of Australian stereotype. XD

@mode_seven: Now with coffee, this isn't a problem.

@Lazzars: The Coffee Cup (now named) doesn't heal the Sniper, nor does it give him an advantage on offense - his reflexes are twitchy and hard to control when caffeine'd up, so if he does get someone while "jittery", it's plain luck (like when a Soldier kills you with a Crit rocket from around the corner).
As for the cons and pros... well, let's look at the Sandvich. The main issue with the Heavy was that he was easier to kill without a Medic. Therefore, the Sandvich heals him. So, the main issue with the Sniper is being killed by fast Scouts and sneaky Spies. Therefore, the Coffee Cup makes him slightly faster and take less damage, but finds it very difficult to attack in the meantime.
I think's it a fair trade-off.

[CruelCow]

TBH I don't think this will help the sniper much. By the time he switched to his secondary and drunken it, there's about 4 seconds time to kill him. Should be enough for each class, in my experience snipers hardly have the time to unscope.
Additionally he'll be severely weakened by it ("he can take half the damage as normal") and getting out of range additionally would take some time, not to mention you've taken any defense from him.


Now my idea for the spy: Make his pistol more of a getaway-weapon: It still undesgises the spy and does less damage than the normal one (-%damage?, no crits?, spread?) but as compensation it slows down enemies.
Which would allow him to get away from let's say, a medic whose heavy he just stabbed, but takes him the chance to kill the medic too (if he stabbed the heavy first).
Pretty much what Natasha does, but with a different goal: Natasha stops people from running away, the new pistol stops the from getting close.

[Zarf]

Agreed, i don't see the "coffee cup" being much use at all. The vast majority of my deaths are due to spies, with no warning.
I would like us to have a better balance vs spies, it seems to be the most "paper beats rock" of any class matchup. Something like a hearing aid to listen for their footsteps would be great A proximity triggered mine would be even better, but that's not very likely

[SkyeSlipstream]

*thumps head on desk*

Another unanimous failure.

[Mosch]

Primary unlockable: High-velocity 'roo reapers
Let's go in a slightly different direction - instead of getting another rifle, the sniper has alternative ammunition. These rounds do not have the same shock effect as his standard rounds do, but their high speed allows them to penetrate certain materials - such as wood or another player. This would allow the sniper to hit two people with one shot or wound people that are behind light cover. Pesky engineer sitting behind his sentry? Put a bullet through both.
Of course actually killing is not that guaranteed anymore since the damage has been cut by half.
Potential problem: I don't know how the different terrain pieces are coded, so maybe they are all "the same"

Secondary unlockable: Nervous Shakedown
Hells Bells! This may not be a big gun, but there's bound to be some high voltage involved. At a lower rof than the submachine gun this highway to hell will touch too much of your opponent's nervous system, shaking him all night long and leaving him thunderstruck. It throws his aim slightly off so without a heatseeker no spy will shake the foundation of this gun for hire. TNT and fast-firing weapons will still have their "money talks" philosophy and break the sniper's balls - even if he's hard as a rock, som dirty deeds can't be done cheap.
(God, that was hard. So basically a weapon that not only damages, but also slightly throws off the enemies aim, pissing off spies, other snipers and maybe scouts but not causing many problem to everybody else.)

Melee unlockable: Heavily bent kukri
This kukri is bent even more than a standard kukri, giving it one peculiar ability: It returns when thrown. The sniper can use this weapon to attack his enemies at a distance, however he does so at severely reduced speed (he has to wait for the kukri to return). The damage is the same as with the basic "swinging kukri".

[claws]

I think the primary would be a field day for cheats

I like your kukri/boomerang though!

[[ZiiP] Lazzars]

the description for the second has far too many puns for me to understand what the hell it does

i think the idea for a boomerang has been suggested many times before though

[Junta]

I would like us to have a better balance vs spies

No way! Its the only revenge class I have for snipers Zarf

[SkyeSlipstream]

Primary unlockable: High-velocity 'roo reapers
Let's go in a slightly different direction - instead of getting another rifle, the sniper has alternative ammunition. These rounds do not have the same shock effect as his standard rounds do, but their high speed allows them to penetrate certain materials - such as wood or another player. This would allow the sniper to hit two people with one shot or wound people that are behind light cover. Pesky engineer sitting behind his sentry? Put a bullet through both.
Of course actually killing is not that guaranteed anymore since the damage has been cut by half.
Potential problem: I don't know how the different terrain pieces are coded, so maybe they are all "the same"

Secondary unlockable: Nervous Shakedown
Hells Bells! This may not be a big gun, but there's bound to be some high voltage involved. At a lower rof than the submachine gun this highway to hell will touch too much of your opponent's nervous system, shaking him all night long and leaving him thunderstruck. It throws his aim slightly off so without a heatseeker no spy will shake the foundation of this gun for hire. TNT and fast-firing weapons will still have their "money talks" philosophy and break the sniper's balls - even if he's hard as a rock, som dirty deeds can't be done cheap.
(God, that was hard. So basically a weapon that not only damages, but also slightly throws off the enemies aim, pissing off spies, other snipers and maybe scouts but not causing many problem to everybody else.)

Melee unlockable: Heavily bent kukri
This kukri is bent even more than a standard kukri, giving it one peculiar ability: It returns when thrown. The sniper can use this weapon to attack his enemies at a distance, however he does so at severely reduced speed (he has to wait for the kukri to return). The damage is the same as with the basic "swinging kukri".

Primary - Shooting through walls is interesting, but there's not many places you can do that and not many people are going to be standing there for long. Only Engineers who put their sentries in stupid places on 2Fort. However, I think the ability to kill more than one person in a single shot should be an ability added to the ordinary Sniper Rifle and whatever unlockable one is made.

Secondary - Better than my Beer Can idea. Less damage, but shakes off enemy aim allowing retreat to be the main focus. An interesting idea I wish I had thought of. -.-;

Melee - A bent kukri? Can they be bent? Uh, either way, essentially the boomerang idea but a different object. Still neat and probably better.

Damn, he makes me look bad...
I must come up with an amazing idea. SOMEHOW.

[Teatime]

Actually I'm not sure there's a need to make the sniper any stronger than he is now (which still is my strongest grip with the pyro-update: backburner + additional help is IMHO too much).

Since the second function of the sniper should be reconnaissance and early-warning-system - a function most snipers never serve - I think those aspects should be strengthened.
The problem is of course: How to reward the sniper? Most snipers want to kill people and get points for that (The better ones also want to help their team :-p). So to encourage them to help the team by giving information it would be necessary that such action would be rewared.

For a moment I was toying with the idea of a tag-rifle, which would tag an enemy having him emitting an optical and/or acoustical signal for a period of time so he would be easier to detect. Would be immensely valuable on spies, but also quite useful on some maps. The tagging could get the sniper a point and the killing of a tagged player an assist.

The idea sucks, of course, because why should a sniper tag a player when he could shoot him at that moment?
So I was thinking: Perhaps a kind of binocular, which would zoom in and out flexibly and - after a charging period, perhaps - with alternative fire would tag any enemy in sight. (If necessary you could consider a fixed amount of "tagging energy" which would be devided amongst the targets, so less targets would stay tagged longer than more).

Not really a solid idea, I admit ...

[claws]

I wonder if you could do it the other way around, where a spy tags a player with a beacon.  The sniper would then receive bonus points for taking out the right target. The spy gets a beacon gun in his update just for this purpose. That encourages snipers to help the team by giving them incentives, and gives the spy a purpose for disguises and non lethal takedowns.

Edit:Ok it seemed a good idea, but thinking about it, surely the sniper knows which targets to take anyway.

[thereason]

My spy ideas:
(1st one based on idea I read on the valve forum)

The sapper gun - replaces your normal sapper.  The gun would shoot out a red beam that disables engineers buildings as long as the beam is making contact.  The beam doesn't damage the building just disables it allowing team mates to take it out / escape from its range.

Syringe stab - replaces your knife.  20% slower stab but you don't have to be behind the player to stab them.  On a successful strike the target will be paralysed for 5-10 seconds (depending on whether it was a crit) or until healed for 2 seconds.  Not sure whether the stab should do damage, maybe cause instant death to scouts  
You still lose your disguise when you stab.

[Cheez]

If sapper gun has no range limit/spread then it would be very overpowered. And paralysing for 10 seconds with a stab anywhere on the body i think is a bit imba aswell.