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October 2025

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Uzz919 (29), FlowingEye (36), Karthus (35)
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Upcoming Birthdays: Uzz919 (29), FlowingEye (36), Karthus (35)

[Omnipotens]

Hi all,

Firstly, I realise there's a lot of history I've missed out on and an awful lot of water (and blood) under a bridge I've never even seen. I'm the new kid (heh) on the block and I fully appreciate that any opinion I have is going to be missing details of events in the past, the workings of the clan/community as it was before I joined etc. Also, I don't want any of what I've said to be taken badly by anyone if I touch upon any subjects that I've not been involved in until this point.

Disclaimer over!

As some people are aware, I've been trying to be proactive in resurrecting the popularity of the public server, recruiting new regs and generally trying my hardest to keep TF2 activity levels to the point where they were at when I first started to play on the WDG server. I'm doing this out of pride, because of the enjoyment that I gained from being part of your community before I became a member. I'm not alone in this pride and it really seems to have helped traffic on the server and that's awesome.

There are a few things that I'd like to raise, from my limited time as a clan member, rather than a "reg".

Personally, I want to be more proactive TF2 wise within WDG. I think things can still improve on the public side of things on the server. There's a lot that can be done, if we want, to make it more popular than it is. I see regs that were on our server all the time, joining for fleeting games before going to other homes. As a community, I think we should be trying to resolve that and kleeping our regulars where they belong, the WDG server!

Looking at threads from around the time of the "great exodous" it is apparent that there are members in WDG who would much rather play competetive TF2 than public. I fully understand that and I've been there in other games. This doesn't mean that there can't be a balance. Infact, I think that right now WDG has an opportuniy to have the best of both worlds.. which leads me to:

I'm more than happy to spend hours of my day playing TF2, including trying to keep the public server alive. But I also want to do more than that, both in TF2 and within WDG. With the members who are happy with public or who are more inclined to play scrims and mixes, why can't we look within our own ranks to fulfill these ambitions and have our cake and eat it. I understand that there is a lot to stop a scrim team from happening, but there's nothing to stop us having a mix squad from within our ranks. Personally speaking, I would love to get into some mixes on a regular basis, learn from you and improve my game.

I know our leadership has had problems and as a reg, I was extremely glad that WDG survived something so catastrophic. You have all done a wonderful job of stopping things from exploding from within, but honestly, sometimes it does feel like there may still be some worry that things have not yet settled to the point where changes can be made, for fear of further happenings. If this isn't the case, I apologise, but if it is.. I think you're being overly cautious. If we don't do anything to expand our horizons, is it not possible that rot will set in until we're just hanging around on a forum and in our individual circles and we're no longer a community?

Between us, we have people who are willing to take control of certain things, be that the responsibility of ensuring that the public facing TF2 server is populated, having serious games outside of the community in mix teams.. whatever. Can we not diversify?

For example: those members who are no longer turned on by public play, really shouldn't have to be responsible for anything in regards to this, including admin. I know you are willing to.. but why does it have to be that way?

Another thing that makes me wonder if we can't diversify the way things are run internally is, I'm not sure where I really fit in, arriving after certain events shook things up. I want to feel at home in WDG, but it's difficult and I don't fully believe that this is simply down to me being the new guy. There are individul circles in WDG already, but instead of exploiting that as a strength and approaching things from multiple angles, things just happen behind the scenes in these circles.

Due to that, I don't feel like I've really found a home outside of the public play on the server. I don't know if I'm rubbing people up the wrong way with my desire to be more proactive and I don't know who to turn to that feels the same way I do about making things work. That's not to say I don't feel like I've been included in things exactly, I just feel a little on the outside edge of something.

Out of respect, I've been fairly timid and careful with the way I've brought things up with people, but I am a member, I'm generally proactive and like to get my hands dirty and I want to help. For the sake of looking like I'm out for glory, I've not said anything.. but I think the time is about right to say these things.

Other thoughts worth thinking about AGAIN, since I know you guys have debated it before. We have a scrim server doing nothing at all nearly 99% of the time. We pay for it, let's use it. If not for scrims, something else. But for the love of god, use it.

In closing:

Let's start pushing public hard.
Let's get a scrim team or at least an internal mix team for giggles if nothing else.
Let's work together, put responsibility in the right areas and get stuff done.
Let's have a good time doing it.

(I'm not having a moan!)

Peace.

P.s. vote 2fort and listen to Lefty.

[Karthus]

Just a year ago I spent every evening playing on the WDG server. Its not the people, its the game thats driving me away. Lets face it, pub TF2 is just an unbalanced joke right now, I cant find fun in getting shitblasted off the map by ridiculous guns. I used to play both public and competitive alot, but now I think only 6v6 with vanilla + medic guns is the way to actually find some enjoyment in TF2. IMO, everything after the Spy update in 09 has made this game worse. Not speaking of the tons of bug fixes and new maps, its mostly the new guns and the complete disregard for artstyle. The game looks ugly now with all this stupid headwear and whatnot, its not the graphical appeal I used to like TF2 for anymore.

The only pub I usually play on for the last year was Hampshire Heavies, because it was full of ETF2L folks but since this game has become f2p its full of the same people that kill my fun on other servers, a complete shitstorm of stupid weapons. Now I usually only hop on the 4chan server, because it cant really get worse and when getting no enjoyment out of playing this with any strain of seriousness, might aswell just play on ridiculous maps like pacman or Mariokart while getting spammed with sounds.

[Tommy the Cat]

WDG had 2 good attempts at competitive play, the first time they were really good, and as a result they ended up losing a key member (to the prem) and chaos, to some shitty team who sucked. The 2nd time around I myself and a few others tried to have a good push at doing well in etf2l but due to a lack of leadership from within the scrim team and from lack of support from the old administrators it didn't work out. Both parties ended up going their separate ways.

I appreciate you having a go at a rejuvination, and although I can't speak for everyone I think most people are still down for shits and giggles but real life has gotta take priority. Also most people just became less interested in TF2 I think, I myself for example just don't get the kick out of it I used too. I mean theres only so many times you can shitbeast Jebus off the server.

No I won't vote 2fort and I might listen to lefty for a bit but after a while I'll probably zone out and or tell him to shut up.

[Chaos]

WDG has always had it's own little groups of people. But they've also been open to other members and regs messing around with them. You just gotta say you want to play with them! That is a strength. People playing different games and then teaching others when they want to play a different title.

I'd agree with karthus on the state of my enjoyment of TF2 though. Remove the dumb weapons and it's a good game again.

PS. I'd be up for helping with a scrim team (tactics and stuff) but my mechanics will be terrible now.

[mode_seven]

You've raised several points here, I will do my best to respond to them in turn.

Before I start, please know I am anything but complacent, there are a huge number of issues WDG faces and I (and the other leaders) have given a great amount of thought to them. Perhaps more thought where there should have been action, but there is a collective feeling of needing to be cautious, WDG came dangerously close to collapse and we don't want to tip it over the brink. I am aware that from the outside this merely looks like a lack of action and I apologise for not being more active sooner.

My quick disclaimer; I'm writing this late at night, rambling and grammatical errors likely, and this solely represents my views.

Server 1/Public play

I'm aware that several people (I think yourself and Berath particularly) are frustrated with the level of traffic on Server 1.

In the clearest possible terms, TF2 is no longer the game it was. It is no longer as popular as it was and the playerbase turnover is hugely greater than a few years ago. A significant amount of the time we are left chasing a playerbase that is not there.

I am not saying that things cannot be improved, merely stating what we have to work with.

The unique selling point of WDG at it's best was the higher standard of play on our server. We were public, but there was communication, a high number of medics, co-ordinated pushes and a co-ordinated defense. We've lost this. The players that enjoyed this playstyle have (for the most part) moved on, either to competitive play or other games.

The server as it is now can be indistinguisable from so many other servers that are available. The majority of the TF2 "community" now are F2P players, who may play the game for a few weeks before moving on and being replaced by new players.

I apologise for being so extremely negative. I (and others) have tried many times to do what you wish to do now and revitalise the TF2 server, but the task that was difficult for us is nigh on impossible for you! However, that is not to say that I do not wish to try.

We may be able to try the joiners group as suggested. I think the main counter-argument was that events are what the community group is there for. I can see however the flipside that there may be a feeling of powerlessness sometimes and a group that all can invite through may be worth a trial at least.

Use Mumble! I'm on most every night, I'm happy to chat whatever I'm playing or just have a conversation when I should probably be working. Even when the TF2 server is not so busy this is another way to build the community. It is of course yet another way to contact people, it's more difficult to say no to a TF2 invite if it's being yelled into your ear!

I will raise one more idea to give you an idea of the sort of concepts I have been considering; with the caveat that this is purely hypothetical and would need significant development and consideration of the extra workload for the leadership/admin team. I just want to give you an idea of how my thought processes are progressing!

I would suggest starting a new public server targeted at the ETF2L and wider competitive community. Vanilla & medic unlocks weapon restrictions, no critical hits, no damage spread, and a map pool drawn from the maps currently in league rotation. It would need significant advertising to the competitive community, but may draw back a more regular and solid group of players looking for a particular public/competitive crossover experience. It could also be a stepping stone for public players interested in competitive play. On that note...


Server 2/Competitive play

The history of the scrim team is extremely checkered and complex. I will do my best to give a quick summary, however if you wish to know more details I would find it easier to chat directly on Steam or Mumble.

The initial attitude towards competitive play in WDG was one of reluctant allowance rather than encouragement. As stated by Tommy, the first season (ETF2l #7) was successful and multiple people moved on to more serious teams. Several attempts were made at following seasons (AFS, 8, 9 & 10), each with different teams and varying line-ups, none ultimately successful or (for the most part) enjoyable for the teams involved.

Competitive TF2 is a very different beast to public play, tactics are much more strictly defined, weapons are extremely restricted and only four classes are generally viable except for special situations. To succeed, a core of players is needed of a level of dedication that isn't always suitable for the sort of players that WDG attracts.

If any community members wish to enter competitive leagues under the WDG banner, you have my full support and I will do what I can to help you on your way. However, I cannot stress strongly enough that successfully running a competitive team is incredibly difficult and not for the faint hearted!

Server #2 is actually in use currently three or four nights a week with competitive games. I apologise that you were not aware of this, I was not aware that you were interested! I believe the last call for new players went out shortly before you joined. At present Jebus, Lefty and myself (most credit to the other two) have been running mixes regularly and we are happy to try and involve and teach any new players who are interested.

Server #2 also has many other facilities available for use by the community already, including bball maps, MGE mod, jump maps and prophunt. All you need to do is ask.


Diversification

WDG needs to diversify, this is true. I do not believe that diversification solely within TF2 will allow the clan to survive.

We need to look at other games. Obviously we've tried this already, the major experiment being with Battlefield 3. This was unsuccessful for various reasons that have been discussed elsewhere.

If I had to place a bet on one game to give WDG a new lease of life, it would be Counter Strike:GO. Many of the players in WDG player CS:S before TF2, we can run a server on the dedicated box without extra financial outlay and it will have a huge inbuilt playerbase and potential for public and competitive play. I have discussed with Deadly, and if the clan is happy we will look at starting a CS:GO server as soon as possible after launch.

This is of course only one game, and there are other FPS, MMO, DOTA and other games that the community is interested in. For these we will do our best to make the forum and the mumble server a suitable resource for driving forward activity in as many games the community is interested in as possible.


Closing

I apologise if there is a feeling of being an outsider or being excluded. I do not want anyone to feel like this, and if there is ever a feeling of discussion being kept private it is only because we want to make sure that we can make the best possible choices for the clan.

The last thing I can say is this: please, please, please talk to us. We do our best to judge community feeling but if you think we've fucked up, if there's something we can do better or if you have any idea: talk to us. We can discuss it, work through pros & cons and figure out improvements. There's nothing we can do if people keep quiet or there is a one sided discussion. Thank you for posting this, I appreciate there are answers that need to be given, but don't feel the need to wait and bottle everything up; ask us little and often and we'll do our best to answer. All of the leaders and many other members have now been in this clan for over four years and there's not much that we can't tell you about WDG.

This is all I currently have the energy to write! If there's anything you feel I have not responded to adequately let me know and I'll try and elaborate in the morning.

Much love to all x

[DeadlyAvenger]

I will post my full comment / response to this later this evening. I envisage it's going to take a while and I'm not sure I can get away with it while at work.

[Mr Chug]

Mode's covered a lot of the ground I would have, but our lack of steering on the comp sides of things really is from experience. We've got server #2 set up for those who would (and do!) use it for competitive play, but we haven't found the right hands on balance in a few attempts in the past so have opted for a more hands-off approach, offering a base for people interested in comp play to build off, much as server #1 originally built the community itself.

From a general game view, I can't play TF2 at all at current due to its long running battle with my current router, so I'm no help there at all.

[Berath]

Thanks everyone, but yes....

Public play - traffic is a frustration, I need to worry about it all less   . And I'm aware that TF2 is not the game it once was, it is an old game. I'm a forum junkie and I lurk on the HH, UKMD, GTFO, UKCS forums and this has been expressed on all of them. Even when UKCS has 7 servers, almost always full, there have recently been people saying how much quieter the TF2 forum is these days. The most popular ones seem to be the fastspawn 32-man 24/7 maps...Dustbowl (UKCS), GTFO Lazytown (which I love, demoman heaven) and UKMD Badwater, with some frustration expressed by regs as the servers with map rotation remain empty.
So yeah, it's a fact. There is less of a player base now.

Now the WDG server. We do tend to be more friendly than many servers out there which is a plus point. The skill level is an issue. Using Quickplay fills the server which does get us new people and new blood coming into TF2 is welcome, but as mode said, the majority are probably casual and it does alter the feel of and play on the server. And this in turn puts off the less casual players who might be more inclined to hang around otherwise (see Karthus's post). So we end up with a lower skilled, more generic server. Using 'better' settings, may get us more dedicated players, but the server remains more-or-less empty - that is what happened before. As I've mentioned HH (who have wrestled with just this problem) have a Steam group with members who are prepared to help fill their servers, focussing on the non-f2p one. And they’ve agreed that when their f2p server has sufficient regs and clan members on it, they transfer over to their other server. So could we do something like that with our current server running alongside an ETF2L-type server?

I’d certainly welcome playing a tighter and cleaner game. And I’d hope I’d learn something from it.

And I never knew all this stuff went on on server 2. I knew the jump maps had been put on there, but I’ve no idea how to make them happen.

I’d love to have a go at 6v6 etc, I’ve wanted to for a long time, but I’ve always seen it as something secret and hidden that went on in WDG for the good players and was not for the ordinary bumbling member like me (it’s how I see 6v6 in general). So I always understood why I was never included so never mentioned it. And yes, full-on comp is different, but I’m not particularly talking about that, though I am a regular on VanillaTF2, I love me my comp 

Also note, I’m happy to organise and do stuff. I’m not expecting to be spoon-fed anything. I’m just limited by my general ignorance.

PS Mr Chug...router problems..I think I may have solved mine with a new router. So far, no disconnects from the WDG server

[discordance]

I think bad routers have been mentioned over and over. They have bad udp flood prevention and picking up a cheap netgear for £5 on ebay is all that you need to do. I trashed my terrible Thomson (one of the brands affected) that Be sent me and replaced it with a cheapo netgear from virgin.

[Karthus]

I would suggest starting a new public server targeted at the ETF2L and wider competitive community. Vanilla & medic unlocks weapon restrictions, no critical hits, no damage spread, and a map pool drawn from the maps currently in league rotation.

Id be on that in a second, jus sayin

ETF2L had their own pub too two years ago and the level of play on it was really high. Unfortunately people stopped playing on it.

[Brahms]

I'll probably actually get into CS:GO if the clan gets into it. I'd rather get into DODS:GO but I guess that doesn't exist.

[Burnalot]

I agree with pretty much everything the others have said. Summed it all up rather well.

I’d love to have a go at 6v6 etc, I’ve wanted to for a long time, but I’ve always seen it as something secret and hidden that went on in WDG for the good players and was not for the ordinary bumbling member like me (it’s how I see 6v6 in general). So I always understood why I was never included so never mentioned it. And yes, full-on comp is different, but I’m not particularly talking about that, though I am a regular on VanillaTF2, I love me my comp  

This is one thing that I have always been slightly irritated by (not at anyone in particular, just in general). Myself and several other ex-members offered to help people out with 6v6 on several occasions, which was always met with either no response or a response of "I would but I'm not good enough". From what I hear, this is still the case. No one would ever be "good enough" if they didn't take opportunities to learn. Not having an interest in 6v6 is understandable and absolutely fine, but those who wish to take part have always had the chance to do so.

I suspect that the lack of activity in mumble is at least partly linked to this view of competitive play, and vice versa. Of course it is by no means the primary reason, just one of several.

WDG is rare in that it is a friendly community. The competitive side of it is no different.

EDIT: this post isn't angry or directed at anyone in particular, it's just a general observation (I re-read it and realised it could be construed as rage-y).

[hawt!]

I'll probably actually get into CS:GO if the clan gets into it. I'd rather get into DODS:GO but I guess that doesn't exist.

Iv'e said this to Mode quite a few times that I'd be more than happy in helping out with the formation of the WDG side of CS:GO should it be implemented.

However, the very thing that Mode's stated about competition in TF2 would also apply.

I plan on going competitive, however unless there is a substantial interest from the WDG side of things (so that effectively a whole team can be mustered) at the right skill level, it's highly unlikely that I will do so through WDG. Numerous reasons mainly, but I have been searching for a particular game to main with what will inevitably be a worldwide competitive scene since quitting from CS:S before coming here, and it is almost inevitable that this will be the game I do so with.

The problem with doing serious competition through WDG is quite simple:

- Members would be required to fit in on the forums: The CSS community is notoriously full of dickheads, and I have no doubts that CS:GO will be the same. I don't really want to discriminate against members being on a team based on how they behave on a forum, and for the sake of the community I'd rather not pull such players in. Just to re-iterate, it's competitive, so I'm assuming that one wants to play to the highest level.

- As people saw with the competitive side of WDG, it ultimately 'pulled away' players to other sources, as well as causing some fragmentation when things weren't panning out as they planned. I'd rather not see this happen for a second time only with a different game.


Whilst I obviously don't have a say in the matter, I did suggest to Mode that were CS:GO to be introduced to WDG, that it would by a mile be best if we kept it along the same lines as they have done for TF2.

Obviously that doesn't mean I won't play scrims with people here, but if the ladders are anything like the old ones I'll be prohibited from doing so in a league.

[Berath]

I agree with pretty much everything the others have said. Summed it all up rather well.

...

...

Doesn't sound rage-y!

I remember you offering and I was keen and really happy but then you all went

Make the offer and I'd be on you like a dog on a bone because I'd know that you'd know what you were letting yourself in for.

[Karthus]

I agree with pretty much everything the others have said. Summed it all up rather well.

...

...

Exactly. People always seem to think theyre bothering when they wish to participate in mixes and whatnot. From what Ive been through when I was in WDG or just generally from mixes organized by people in this community, this is not the case at all. Im happy to teach upcoming soldiers rollouts and upcoming medics some strats, but you gotta show some initiative too and not hide behind a door being afraid to ask. This is probably one of the most forgiving and friendly communities, so dont expect hostility just because theres people that try to play this on a higher level.

That said, the reason we left WDG a couple of months ago did lie in some differences between the teams expectations and the leadership (not the current one). To break it down without going too much into the details, the clan expected us to have completely new people being thrown into leagueplay, but since we wanted to get to div4 with our lineup back then, this would not have applied to our goals. Mixes are something completely different and everyones more than welcome to join them.