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[TheBeau]

Papa is right. After a deep reflection I have come to a conclusion.

When I was younger, I was told that if I put a tooth under my pillow I would in turn receive money from 'The Tooth Fairy'. Being young and brash I immediately suspected this to be false, I had heard of no such thing before. "It exists," I was told. "Just try it," I was told. Though still skeptical, I decided that there was no harm in trying, it wasn't like I needed the tooth, I had nothing to lose. I was at the top of the world with a parachute, why wouldn't I try to fly?

So I placed the milky white tooth under my pillow which had pictures of Pokemon on and I waited. I slept. The next day I woke and trembling, slowly looked under my pillow. There lay a small object. Circular, metallic, cool. It was money. But the tooth? Gone. As if whisked away by the magician and his wand. I could not believe it. Shock. I felt shock. The very foundation of the world I stood upon suddenly felt liquid, prone to a capricious movement. The tooth fairy, was real.

And that was the day I started believing in homeopathic medicine.

By TheBeau, age four and three quarters.

[r007]

I personally am sceptical towards homeopathy.
From a chemical standpoint I believe that high dilutions (1:Loch Ness) is highly improbable to work; yet several friends of mine appear to achieve very good results.

For myself I think I've concluded that the human body is much more resilient than we admit it to be and a little help (be it true chemically reactive action or just "the placebo effect") goes a long way.
Whatever works for you, I guess. (For me, Homeopathy doesn't seem to do much, but if it does for HeX, Lully and my friends, yay Homeopathy!)

PS: This is not the thread to discuss what's been going on in the other one; rest assured we're discussing it internally.

[hawt!]

Papa is right. After a deep reflection I have come to a conclusion.

When I was younger, I was told that if I put a tooth under my pillow I would in turn receive money from 'The Tooth Fairy'. Being young and brash I immediately suspected this to be false, I had heard of no such thing before. "It exists," I was told. "Just try it," I was told. Though still skeptical, I decided that there was no harm in trying, it wasn't like I needed the tooth, I had nothing to lose. I was at the top of the world with a parachute, why wouldn't I try to fly?

So I placed the milky white tooth under my pillow which had pictures of Pokemon on and I waited. I slept. The next day I woke and trembling, slowly looked under my pillow. There lay a small object. Circular, metallic, cool. It was money. But the tooth? Gone. As if whisked away by the magician and his wand. I could not believe it. Shock. I felt shock. The very foundation of the world I stood upon suddenly felt liquid, prone to a capricious movement. The tooth fairy, was real.

And that was the day I started believing in homeopathic medicine.

By TheBeau, age four and three quarters.

I'm going to frame this, and hang it on my wall.

[Berath]

It does make a difference if you to it instead of conventional medicine and you were truly ill. I was reading a thread where a woman said she was brought up on homoeopathy and it worked well. Then she caught a serious lung/chest infection. Her parents treated it using homoeopathy. She now has permanent scaring on her lungs.

There was also a homoeopathic anti malaria drug. People took it and caught malaria.

[discordance]

you opened the door papa, and I agree with claws hands down it was bad administration, you tread very close to power abuse at times and this was one of them.

[Lullaby]

I forgot to mention:
Whenever it is an illness like cystitis, pneumonia.. bad stuff like that, I'm still counting on the "chemical" medicine. I'm just to much of a coward to totally rely on homoeopathy.
Sometimes homoeopathy can help and support the "chemical" medicine...

[Power]

I don't think many people are that distressed about homoeopathy just that it was the wrong thread for either side to start an argument. Homoeopathy is accepted as complementary medicine because it is non-harmful and can via placebo effect provide a positive benefit to the health and wellbeing of patients, however its active physical effectiveness is non-existant: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9820349 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9758072

CV should have presented the mainstream science counterpoint and that should have been the end of it, Hzza could do his own reading and make up his own mind. With all the posts deleted I can't see who started things but both sides were in the wrong.

I don't think this thread is a good idea but meh.

Wow... for once I completely agree with Disco. WTF?

One thing that is going wrong here is not the actual disagreement, it's the way the discussion is being run. Can we stop being dicks to each other to prove a point?

I don't deny the homeopathics have an effect, but I don't believe the effect is due to whatever agent is inside them, since the very basis of it is dillution to the point where the agent is not detectable anymore. Still, the effect they have, which is purely psychological in my opinion, without a question IS real. So I don't see what's wrong with using it. The suggestion to use sugar pills wouldn't work, because for placebos to work you have to be unaware that they actually are placebos.

In short: I agree with the first principle of homeopathy (fight same with same), which is similar to some stuff traditional medicine is employing as well. I disagree with the principle of dillution and especially with the notion, that the medicine is getting MORE effective the more dilluted the agent is.

Also Beau: that's not really the same thing. The one is believing in something, which triggers a real response and the other is black magic.

[hawt!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJQAYYZ8A4g

Play it loud whilst wearing your debating hat.

[r007]

you opened the door papa, and I agree with claws hands down it was bad administration, you tread very close to power abuse at times and this was one of them.

Will you people cut it out already, that's OFF TOPIC here! *sigh*

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9820349

Wait, what? (Emphasis mine...)

MATERIALS AND METHODS:
Computerized literature searches were performed to retrieve all placebo-controlled studies on the subject. The following databases were searched: MEDLINE, EMBASE, CISCOM, and the Cochrane Library. Data were extracted in a predefined, standardized fashion independently by both authors. There were no restrictions on the language of publications.

RESULTS:
Eight trials fulfilled all inclusion criteria. Most related to conditions associated with tissue trauma. Most of these studies were burdened with severe methodological flaws. On balance, they do not suggest that homeopathic arnica is more efficacious than placebo.

So they google'd up everything they found, cut away what they deemed irrelevant, the remainder was still bad science, and they draw a conclusion from THAT?! Lemme read that paper...

It is concluded that the hypothesis claiming that homeopathic arnica is clinically effective beyond a placebo effect is not based on methodologically sound placebo-controlled trials.

Thought so.

I disagree with the principle of dillution and especially with the notion, that the medicine is getting MORE effective the more dilluted the agent is.

Eeeyup.

[CruelCow]

Quite frankly I don't give a damn if you like Homeopathy or not, but I am very displeased how the situation was handled.
Should discussion about admin behaviour be put in here, a new thread or is that also against the forum rules?

[r007]

Addendum to my previous post: The Conclusion summary on PubMed is factually wrong. AUGH!

[Mr Chug]

I was lucky enough before my daughter was born to have a fair amount of spare time and access to my uni's biology journal subscriptions, so I was able to read up on post-natal problems and treatments. The most convincing studies divided subjects into 4 camps:

1) those given placebos and told so
2) those given placebos and told they were homeopathic remedies
3) those given homeopathic remedies and told they were placebos
4) those given homeopathic remedies and told so

As you might have guessed from reading other links, groups 2 and 4 showed improvement, groups 1 and 3 not at all. Saying objects have a placebo effect isn't an insult to their often good effects (especially in mild injuries), only to their claims. On a related note, the more sceptical people were, the less effective the treatment, so only in cases where not using actual proven medicine is a risk (such as Berath's case above) would I seek to undermine someone's belief aside from saying that they should really just go with the sure thing.

[discordance]

Yes r007 they weren't able to say 100% it was ineffective but they found no evidence of homoeopathic arnica doing anything, and as a homoeopathic remedy its unlikely they will, this was just an afternoons paper surfing, guilt and chug are much more informed. Herbal arnica on the other hand does seem to have a measurable healing effect, which sometimes results in anecdotal confusion along with placebo effect.

[PapaFade]

Quite frankly I don't give a damn if you like Homeopathy or not, but I am very displeased how the situation was handled.
Should discussion about admin behaviour be put in here, a new thread or is that also against the forum rules?

Feel free. As long as itn respects the opinions of others and isn't in contrary to any froum rules.

Of course, you can always just stop visiting the forums and servers and find a place more suited to your own tastes/beliefs.

[Burnalot]

Quite frankly I don't give a damn if you like Homeopathy or not, but I am very displeased how the situation was handled.
Should discussion about admin behaviour be put in here, a new thread or is that also against the forum rules?

Feel free. As long as itn respects the opinions of others and isn't in contrary to any froum rules.

Of course, you can always just stop visiting the forums and servers and find a place more suited to your own tastes/beliefs.

It is going to be a lonely forum if everyone who disagrees with you suddenly leaves.