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December 2025

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[Power]

You still can't do Soldier stuff when you are heavy.

If you really want to go there:
Heavy can't do soldier stuff, because he is too busy doing medic stuff with his sandvich, healing self and others. I'm actually surprised there is no walking ammo dispenser class yet, maybe that one is for the engineer update (where it would at least fit into his role in the team).

Speaking of medic stuff, soldier can do some of it as well now with the mini-kritzkrieg, I mean the banner. Arguably even more effective than the medic, as he doesn't have to aim at anyone to make them mini-crit AND he mini-crits himself. And the buff works for everyone around him, not just one person. And it lasts longer. And you can charge it faster, though I didn't really stopped the watch, but since it's dependent on how much damage you make instead of a specific % to time ratio, I'd guess so. Damn the only thing that's worse about it is actually the damage.

And for that matter, though on a quite different level, the sniper also has a kritzkrieg like effect.

Also.. the spy can do the sniper stuff as well, shooting you in the head from god knows where, he also can't die like... no wait, no other class can do that stuff.

Same as the pyro, who can now actually pester snipers without being anywhere near the flamethrower (or even shotgun) range.

Soldier has scouts speed if he wants to (not that he needed it, he could move faster than a scout with rocketjumps anyway).

Scouts can "rocketjump" with the FAN.

Snipers have not one, but two projectile weapons now, which allow them to employ tactics similar to soldiers and demomen, just enough to kill stuff that you don't even see in that moment, thanks to travelling speed and throwing arc.

Demomen has more health than a heavy, while moving faster that him, doing reversal backstabs, if you wish, immune to explosives in a similar way the pyro is immune to afterburn effect, but yeah, as you said, basically a new class.

I probably even forgot something.

If you compare demomen to the changes mentioned before, it's not really that different. Valve did the same thing they did before - taking some trait from another class and implement it in a lesser version on a different class. It's just that they overdone it a bit with the demo and suddenly people are starting to notice it.

I'm not saying all of that is bad (or even significant) - in a chaos the game is now it doesn't matter how you die. I'm just saying that if you really take the ROLE of the class when the game was released and compare to what this class can do now (and more important, how much of that initial role ANOTHER class can do to some extent by now), you can't deny that the classes got less and less distinctive with each update and it all just turning into a big deathmatch, where it doesn't matter which class you take, just make sure it's the one that deals out damage the best.

//Edit: Also, yay for class limits (is anyone even reading this far?)

[Ringelbeatz]

You're right, when you say that they can do special things of other classes (not as good as the others, but they can).
But when they do it, they have to give away another trait of them.

And with traits I mean guns (we're in a shooter right? - The classes have no traits besides moving speed and outward appearance)
Take the snipers Jarate - he has to get rid of his smg.
The FAN - no Scattergun
sandvich - no shotgun

Soldier has scout speed, but only 1-15hp left to get that fast.

I think your arguments (e.g. spy can headshot like snipers or heavy can heal with sandvich like a medic) are somekind of a compare with apples and oranges.
They are slightly identical, but not that much to say that they can do the job of another class.


//Hurray for class limits

[Power]

But that's exactly my point actually. In order to do something a different class can do better, now most classes can do it too, to a lesser extent at the cost of giving up a trait/ability their own class originally have. So they become more of the other class at the cost of giving away something from their own. That's what I mean when I say the classes don't matter that much anymore, it's just who has the biggest damage output, while having the most possible collection of traits of other classes (at the moment it's definately the soldier).

And you're right, the things aren't identical, it would be stupid if they were - imagine the outcry on steampowered forums. "But valve just gave medics weapon to the heavy!!!". But they are similar enough so that if you want to, you don't have to choose one class or the other, because you can have one class that combines up to three different classes.

[Ringelbeatz]

I don't think it's that critical, maybe I am just too dulled by CounterStrike...

From my point of view the classes still have enough varieties.
As long as the primary weapons aren't the same I am fine with it

[scroggage]

I agree that the updates are necessary to keep TF2 interesting but as Power said, the best part is always the "other changes" box for me. I love the damage indicator, for example. And the animations for headshots/backstabs... heck when the spy got his ammo recharges cloak thing, it wasn't a specific update for that. They always put the best tweaks there.

The key to all this is "roles". Classes should all have a job, eg Spy and Sniper to take out targets instantly that would pose a problem for other classes, medic to heal and support, engineer to claim ground and support, demo to area deny, soldier and scout to attack.
If you just make everyone a damage-doer, nobody has a role within the team anymore and it just becomes Team Deathmatch 2.

// Also, YES! Class limits

[Hzza]

I've been refraining from posting for a while as I haven't really been playing around with the new stuff enough to form much of an opinion of it, but as I'm bored almost to tears at work I figured I could chuck in my impressions as they stand at the moment.
Firstly re this particular update, I'm pretty sure this isn't the worst update in the world (whatever Tea says, I still think that honor falls to the scout update*). With some tweaking it could turn out ok (I guess). First up, targe: why they decided to give damage resistance to the demoman is beyond me, but as suggested further back in the thread by Scroggy (I think), make it only offer the resistance whilst you have it equiped. Passive buffs at this point, in this game, seem kind of stupid, at least if you make it equipable you'd have to toggle to your sword/pipes to do some damage offering a nice risk/reward deal. Sword is fine, loosing health as a trade off for the potential to increase your damage output is fair enough in my books. At the end of the day, its still a melee weapon and props to anyone that can kill something with it. Scottish Resistance is polar oposite to the generally offensive sticky launcher so that can stay as it is: a very situational sidegrade. Solly stuff is pretty much ok too, take the mid-air minicrits off of the DH and put them onto the normal rocket launcher and maybe remove crits from the Equalizer and you're done.

The problem in general as I see it is that Valves focus on the updates has changed from balancing the classes/making them more useful (medic/pyro/heavy somewhat) to changing their roles or offering different playstyles that go against the original intention for the specific class (scout/sniper/demo mainly). What you then get is the rock/paper/scissors balance that was so apparent around the time of the pyro update (I can't say from the start as I didn't start playing until the pyro update which will be the start of my frame of reference). Take the sniper for instance; the original intention (as was said in one of the commentary jobbies I believe) was to have him stood miles away from everyone picking off key targets and getting savaged up close by pretty much anything. With the huntsman and jarate they've (Valve that is) blured their intention for the sniper and turned him into a semi-solly (projectile based, close-mid range class). Kind of a skewed analogy but you can kind of see the point I'm trying to make; instead of offering viable sidegrades that allow the class to do a similar job as before in a slightly different way (kritz/uber being the best example I can think of), we are now getting items that completely change the intended role of the class, and therefore the rock/paper/scissors relationship between them. This is where the holes are opening and classes (heavy/engie/pyro mainly) are falling through the gaps and getting left out/becoming redundant.
In my opinion, the way to rectify this is to get the engie update out and then once thats done do a MASSIVE overhall of the released weapons to try and bring some kind of balance back to the game; where the pyro's roam free and the heavy's can walk more then 3 feet outside spawn without getting sniped/stabbed/stunned/jarate'd/decapitated. As far as I can see from the latest sandman changes this could be a direction that we are headed and I for one would welcome it; as has been said before, if you make one class too good at everything, you might as well get rid of the rest, give everyone 1-hit kill instagib cannons and turn the game into Unreal Torny Fortress.

/wall o'text.

Also, sorry.

edit - * Just remembered that I am writing an article for Tea's site (for the last 9 months or so) about the scout update, I'll get back on it in the next week or so .

[Power]

I hate yor ass, Hzza. Hate it for being moar elokwent than as me!

[Hzza]

I hate yor ass, Hzza. Hate it for being moar elokwent than as me!

I literally just read your post at the top of the page, making a lot of the same points as me - IT'S NOT PLAGARISM IF IT'S ON THE INTERNETZ KTHXBAII!

[Power]

I believe that is called copypasta, but I suck at cooking! (here comes the phixing!!!)

[Hzza]

I believe that is called copypasta, but I suck at cocking! (here comes the phixing!!!)

Best I could come up with at short notice.

[Power]

Sorry man, didn't mean to pressure you or anything. Maybe you can reconsider and come back with a better, less obvious offering?

P.S.: You really can tell we're bored at work. Though in my defense, it's lunch break!

[scroggage]

Pretty much in agreement with Hzza and Power. Except the mini crits on airborne targets with standard RL, I don't think the solly needed any kind of buff from how he was before, I've ended up using RL, shotty, EQ as it's the best general, versatile setup.
But otherwise you pretty much summed up how I feel in a less Scroggage-y way.
Especially fond of the sniper example.

[Mr Chug]

I'm holding my opinion on the new items until I've actually played with them (i.e. when I'm back at uni), but in retrospect the biggest mistake seems to be releasing this as a double update. Engies never had a chance against a sudden surge in their two main counter classes. The only advantage in the new toys all coming at once is that they might make the engie surge when their update rolls around slightly less frustrating for all.

[Power]

I want a portable dispenser for the engi that would make him less of a sitting duck, but it shouldn't heal, just produce metal and ammo.

[Teatime]

Well, at least nobody can whine about inpenetrable defense.
When a team is able to coordinate a über, a buff banner and perhaps a charge (heck, mayhaps even a bottle of jarate for good measure) chances should be looking quite well.

More thoughts are festering on my netbook ...