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December 2025

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[Ringelbeatz]

I've got a vision....

After the Engie-update....

there will be....

Medic update Nr. 2 

[LtMama]

BLASPHEMY!

[scroggage]

Trouble with buffing every class to make the game balanced again is that sooner or later we'll end up with every class being stupidly good and it will just be ridiculous. If I wanted that, I'd just go play insta-gib unreal tourny.

Agreed. All classes overpowered doesn't mean a balanced game. It can mean a very fun game, like UT04 where every standard weapon can either kill in 1 hit or in under 3 seconds. But that's a deathmatch game and relies on different factors for being fun. TF2 mustn't turn into deathmatch... the whole point is that some classes should be totally useless against others and some super-effective against others.

I was thinking specific tweaks... I'm beginning to agree with Teatime on the Sword/Targe Demoman. I think the sword is a really good idea because there are enough downsides to make it a risk (reduced health, no crits) and enemies deserve it if you get close enough to kill them. Combining this with the targe charge is what makes it too good, if you just slightly lessened the targe's Damage Reduction, this would help immensly.
Or, my second idea is to make the targe a weapon you have to hold to get the Damage Reduction. You can't attack with it out, you just get damage reduction. Right click still charges so you can run away or, using another weapon, make your charge.

Also there is a change for the Dead Ringer I saw on a blog. The idea is that instead of having a fake death then 6.5 seconds of damage reduction and invis, you instead have ghosting that you can turn on or off. Ghosting would mean that you drain the cloak bar (like you do with the Cloak and Dagger, no ammo recharges) and it allows you to walk through enemies take hits from spy checking. But the spy checking damages your cloak bar. A full cloak bar would give you, say, equivalent to another 125 health. Just enough to survive a couple of shots. Also you can't be set on fire, you just take damage from the flame that currently touches you. The trick with this is there's no indication as to whether it's turned on or off, meaning that the successful spy is the one who can actually use disguises effectively and pretend to be an enemy. Of course the obvious downside is no invis, and definitely no attacking while ghosted (to prevent tank spies).

The other option with DR is to remove the damage reduction after the initial fake death (so he's really easy to kill while invisible) but get rid of the noise on decloaking.

Alternatively if people still want rid of the Dead Ringer, I've been playing using the other watches recently and I can pretty much guarantee you that if they got rid of the noise you make when you uncloak with either of the invis watches, I would use that watch instead. All the time.

As for engi buffs... I can't think of anything good. I've heard of the idea you can slap down insta-buildings that can't be upgraded but that sounds kinda meh.

[AmS]

Explosion immune sentry does not sound as a bad idea, but that sentry would have to be some kind of a short range flamethrower or something like that.

[Zarf]

just make a sentry able to target rockets and stickies mid-air. They'd still go through, but only if the sentry was distracted (i.e teamwork!).

[Finaldeath]

I'd give it a few more weeks, or a month. Most people are still playing Demo and Soldier to get/use unlocks. It's a very different game - and I find a heavy/medic pair surprisingly effective against the spam, equalizer and sword antics, with an ubercharge to counter any silly banners

We'll see if then, especially after some bugfixes (and minor rebalances) how it'll go.

Not tried much pyro or engineer though (I rarely try and play Engineer as it is, I get bored hitting stuff on teams that don't progress far doing anything!).

[Torgue]

I agree with Final. Just give it some time and the game will return to normal (sort of).
Also, I believe future updates will be available via blueprints.
P.S. I hope they make themed weapons update.

[Lullaby]

Tbh I haven't read all your posts because I'm really pissed about TF2 at the moment and didn't want to make it worse.. so this is my solution: delete all the updates. I don't need them. Kthxbye.

I only use two unlocked weapons: The saw for the medic and the axe for the pyro. And I only use them because they look prettier than the others. Since the updates started the I got annoyed very often and lost the fun at TF2 several times. Why do people always have to try to make very good things even better (and then fail)?

Mpf.

[DeadlyAvenger]

Why do people always have to try to make very good things even better (and then fail)?

because it makes valve lots of money...each update causes a surge in sales and so valve gets money.

I get a feeling though that TF2 is now so detached from what it was when it was first released that it would be unrecognisable. There have been so many fixes, patches & updates since release that there is almost nothing that has been untouched.

[CruelCow]

Would you still play the original TF2? I'm pretty sure I'd be bored by now. Also keep in mind, the first two updates (medic/pyro) were really needed since those two needed a buff.

Also there is a change for the Dead Ringer I saw on a blog. The idea is that instead of having a fake death then 6.5 seconds of damage reduction and invis, you instead have ghosting that you can turn on or off. Ghosting would mean that you drain the cloak bar (like you do with the Cloak and Dagger, no ammo recharges) and it allows you to walk through enemies take hits from spy checking. But the spy checking damages your cloak bar. A full cloak bar would give you, say, equivalent to another 125 health. Just enough to survive a couple of shots. Also you can't be set on fire, you just take damage from the flame that currently touches you. The trick with this is there's no indication as to whether it's turned on or off, meaning that the successful spy is the one who can actually use disguises effectively and pretend to be an enemy. Of course the obvious downside is no invis, and definitely no attacking while ghosted (to prevent tank spies).

Meh. Removing pretty much any chance of spychecking as trade-off for no chance to escape after a stab? I don't like it.

[Power]

Would you still play the original TF2?

I don't know if I would. With the new gamemodes and maps, I probably would. Who knows? I can tell you what I do know, though. There is a difference between fixing bugs and imbalances with an update and putting stuff in the game for the sake of "novelty". Because if you want novelty at all costs, you'll end up with stuff, which neither fits the class nor helps the balance.

Keep in mind that what we got in a class update so far are Valve's BEST (god I don't want to see the ideas that didn't make it) ideas for that class at that time. I'd rather have them not adding anything and stick to bugfixing (fake client crits on automatic weapons bug has been around since the beta and is STILL not fixed), if they don't have a good idea at that time, rather than just putting whatever is on the table right now, because it's update time and every class has to get three unlocks, no matter what.

Meh. Removing pretty much any chance of spychecking as trade-off for no chance to escape after a stab? I don't like it.

If you REALLY need something to help you not to die when you just killed someone (seriously, any other class has something similar?), I'd suggest making a spy 20% resistant for all damage up to 3 seconds after a successful backstab and make it stackable to 80%. Means, if you manage a backstab, your chances of getting away are slightly better, if you manage a backstab chain, it would be very hard to kill you. Giving you a get-away-for-free ticket for blowing your cover and messing up, like it is now, is NOT the right way and just encourages bad play. Not saying you or scroggage are playing badly, but fairly obvious plenty of times, because you can get away with it.

EDIT: Generally, releasing an update for two most spammy classes at the same time, thus doubling the negative effect of each and every class update we had so far was... well.. not Valve's best move.

[Teatime]

It's an interesting fact that quite a lot people state they would rather have a game without updates, yet each time an update is announced everybody (including aforementioned people) are excited and in almost feverish anticipation.

Let's face it, if Valve had never introduced class updates the game would still be going, but probably slowly losing players who are moving on and with far too few people entering the game. TF2 is too complex to have the simple competitive impulse games like CS have (which helps those to be popular even after being around so long).

And actually I have no problems with class updates at all. I embrace very different items which make the game richer and add new tactics and variations. I'm just pissed off about *this* particular update because I think Valve has made too many questionable decisions.
The really sad thing is that Valve took the two most powerful classes in TF2 and couldn't help but making those even more powerful (solly even more than the demo).

Will it get back to normal? I don't know. Sure, the concentration of sollys/demos will perhaps recede, but by no means inevitably. Why play a different class when one can play a truly powerful one? Instead of making the game richer Valve might just have managed to make it poorer. Yes, I expect to see less sword-swinging demos after a while. That's a novelty factor which will wear off, especially once people learn to counter the charge. But especially the solly has become so much more attractive than before.

[Power]

Well I look forward to big updates, that's true. But not to get my hands on some shiny stuff, infact, the only unlocks I have right now are the Equilizer and the Eyelander (the second I got as a random drop). Also not to play a game which to 80% consists of the currently updated class. Also not to observe borderline idiotic behaviour for about two weeks after each and every update as people are frantically trying to get each and every achievement as fast as possible.

What I'm looking forward are the general bugfixes, balancing updates, new maps and gamemodes and stuff like this. Infact, the thing I'm happy the most with this class update are the additions to medics interface with the auto-alarm for people below specific health value and an indicator of your healing target (though I don't know if I'll keep using it). It's tweaks like this, that make a class more effective, without having any effect on the game itself.

It's obvious, that constantly bringing new stuff into the game is a genious idea from the business point of view. It's adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff that is the problem. If every class ends up with all kinds of weapons and roles connected with those weapons, we can as well just have the weapons lay around on the floor, old school-deathmatch style for everyone to pick up and play according to the weapon and not to the class they chose.

Actually, risking another wall of text here, so I'll leave it.

[Ringelbeatz]

It's an interesting fact that quite a lot people state they would rather have a game without updates, yet each time an update is announced everybody (including aforementioned people) are excited and in almost feverish anticipation.

Let's face it, if Valve had never introduced class updates the game would still be going, but probably slowly losing players who are moving on and with far too few people entering the game. TF2 is too complex to have the simple competitive impulse games like CS have (which helps those to be popular even after being around so long).

And actually I have no problems with class updates at all. I embrace very different items which make the game richer and add new tactics and variations. I'm just pissed off about *this* particular update because I think Valve has made too many questionable decisions.
The really sad thing is that Valve took the two most powerful classes in TF2 and couldn't help but making those even more powerful (solly even more than the demo).

I totally agree with Teatime.
The updates are necessary to keep TF2 special.
I wouldn't still play it without the updates, no matter how controversial some of them are/were.
They breathe new life into it and thats a good thing.

And as long as the community is crying I think everything is fine, because the developers still take care of whine.
I think TF2 has one of the most high-minded community, which causes constant blubbering...
But I think it's better in this way. Otherwise we would stay on 24/7 Dustbowl only servers (thinking of Dust2).

 

It's adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff that is the problem. If every class ends up with all kinds of weapons and roles connected with those weapons, we can as well just have the weapons lay around on the floor, old school-deathmatch style for everyone to pick up and play according to the weapon and not to the class they chose.

As far as I can see every class-update  was still class-specific. (Excluded Demoupdate (it's somekind of introducing a new class))
You still can't do Soldier stuff when you are heavy.
The only thing they tried to change was to give an opportunity to different playstyles. (e.g. backburner, kritzkrieg, huntsman, ect.)

[r007]

Just thought I'd let you guys know: The Elders have decided to reinstate class limits with 2 snipers, spies, 3 of all else. We hope this will bring the game on the WDG servers back to more sensible levels. The limits should be active as I'm writing this.