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[DeadlyAvenger]

Right, I need some more experienced heads with me on this one.

After losing my job over the summer I very quickly found work as a self-employed PHP programmer for someone that did work for my old employer. At the time I was just happy to have work and after looking through the existing system in place for the project I was going to be working on I felt very much out of my depth so I put myself down for a low hourly rate. There was a lot of things I was unfamiliar with on the system and concepts I have never used before so it didn't feel right to charge too much.

I had never worked on this kind of project for an hourly rate (billed as invoices), I had always worked for people I knew and on a per project/phase rate. One of the people I worked for I still do work for and when I told him how much I'm getting paid in my new job he said I am massively under-selling myself and should be charging at least twice what I'm currently getting for my time. He has just asked me to do some work on the site I have been doing for him (http://f1.brandbroadcast.net) and he is (and always has) given me a good rate and he's been in the business for quite a long time and a good friend so I trust his opinions and input.

Skip to now, I have declared myself as self-employed to keep everything above-board tax wise and have been working for this guy for 9 weeks (almost entirely on one project) and he has said that once this project is finished he will have more work for me.

I am now familiar with the system that's being used and have undergone a MASSIVE learning curve in the last 9 weeks and feel that I am actually able to make a difference (and don't feel useless) and I'm starting to feel that I should ask for more money. As far as I'm aware and what he's told me he is happy with my work (and the fact he has other projects for me to work on must mean something right) that I've done so far and he has recently had me working on small fixes for other sites.

So my question is this - how do I go about raising the subject of getting a more reasonable rate for the type of work I am doing? This makes a massive difference for me at the moment as I'm working around my studies, so anything that means I'm getting more money for my time is brilliant. On the one hand, I know I'm massively under-selling myself as per the going rate for the kind of work I'm doing and now that I'm more confident with what I'm doing I feel like it wouldn't be that unreasonable to ask for more. On the other hand...I don't want to lose the work and if he just thinks "well at his current hourly rate for his experience he is at the right cost to experience level and he's asking for more but don't feel it's worth it" or something like that. Also, I feel I may have shot myself in the foot by suggesting such a low starting rate in the first place.

It's quite an informal system we're working under, I've signed an NDA but there's no contract and we just communicate over skype etc.

I'm sure you guys can help me so fire away

[discordance]

When he brings up the new projects and wants to get you started on them tell him you need a higher rate. You've got to be willing to risk losing the job if you want a raise though.

[CruelCow]

Have a good thought how much you want to have and how low you'd go again (as low as currently?). There's a good chance he'll reply with "how much do you have in mind?" when you ask and nothing's worse than answering uuuuhh to that
Which of course creates the next very hard question, how much is right? You don't wanna ask too much or he'll just say no without even bargaining but you also don't wanna have to ask the same question in half a year.

Create a (mental!) list of good things about you, your post is a good start: good work, familiar system, time it took to get somebody else to your knowledge base etc... (the no contract IMHO suggests he trusts you)

As disco said, the new project would be a good time to bring it up.

[Nineblade]

Might be worth first broaching the idea of a proper contract Sam. A contract needs stuff like NDAs and daily/hourly rate etc so it makes the employer pay attention to the content whereas up till now it's just taken for granted and 'forgotten' about. Once you have a contract it gives you license to discuss what's in it. You can say stuff like: "I'm very pleased with the contract in general. Can we discuss a couple of points such as market rates for my skillz" and so on. IMO it's less direct asking for a contract rather than going straight for the jugular (pay rise) because you can justify it as a requirement for your accounts and to make sure you are IR35 compliant etc.

This is just a suggestion. No doubt others will have better ideas (I'm notoriously bad at this type of stuff)

[Junta]

Agree on a contract - you really must have one of these or things can turn ugly, even with friends. It protects you AND your customer / client.

As for an increase, I personally would wait longer. You need a reason for a price hike, and usually it starts with negotiation of a new project based on past delivery and satisfaction tied up with skills and experience gained.

You need to be careful. Step 1 is to find out what an experienced developer would get for your present work. Once you know this you can set a fair level and ask directly for it. Don't ask in the middle of a project, this sort of thing looks unprofessional and can lose you repeat business.

If you're looking to justify a rise, I would use the following: "I can now deliver faster as a result of increased experience. I have proven myself to be a reliable business partner and my work is more robust. Therefore the client is paying for a better product in a shorter time frame."

I'd just be cautious, you want to be recommended mate. Don't starve yourself but don't bite the hand that feeds you either.

Just to re-iterate what Nick said - a contract really is everything. It is the protection that you need in terms of commitments and deliverables as well as remuneration. Without a contract a customer could keep you working on an open ended project if they disagree with what you are delivering (even if you are delivering what was originally asked for). Beware!

[DeadlyAvenger]

Ok - but none of this responsibility really falls with me because I'm not actually taking on the clients directly.

I am working at an hourly rate, for the guy who runs the company (but not working for the company) - he gives me tasks/jobs to do (or occasionally the client gives them to me) but in the end - the responsibility falls with him as it's his project (and presumably he has a contract with the client etc.)

It's not so much I am taking on projects as I am assisting with existing or new projects.

Plus, if I start getting into contracts I start getting into commitments etc. Also...I'd have no idea what to put in the contract etc. as I have no idea about these things.

[Junta]

Ok - but none of this responsibility really falls with me because I'm not actually taking on the clients directly.

I hate to quibble, but you HAVE a client - the person who is paying you! He / she is your customer and they in turn have their own customer that you sometimes deal with.

In my industry, you would be a contractor - brought in by my company but not on our permanent staff. We'd pay you a contractor rate to deliver on our behalf, either talking to us or directly with our own clients. Its the same thing.

You should get a contract mate... an informal arrangement will cause you grief in the end

When I say you doing a "project" - I mean "work" when you engage on a new item of work, then that is the right time to broach the subject of your raise and a contract.

Edit: Without the contract, the person paying you can also move the goal posts. They can argue that you haven't done what they want even if they stated differently when you started. An example would be expecting you to do some additional work that originally was out of scope. This would be specified in a contract either as specific tasks or a time frame over which the contract would run (for example, "Develop a new php website to specification x" or "work for 6 months" or both). At the moment, the person paying the wages could give you a fixed rate of pay then keep adding tasks for you to do (i.e. "now do some system testing please" or "write a user manual please"). You would have originally agreed your rate so it wouldn't cover you for other tasks you may not have expected to perform.

[Power]

Junta is smard! Unliek me!

[Nineblade]

If you just want to get an idea of contract rates, go onto jobserve.com and enter some keywords into the role textbox eg php,.net. Browse through the jobs found and check out the hourly/daily rate ranges  offered for certain job descriptions. A lot will say market rate but there should be enough to give you an idea. Bear in mind that these are usualy at the low end of the rate scale especially for contract positions because the agencies who post the jobs will always try to get the biggest margin.

[Junta]

go onto jobserve.com and enter some keywords into the role textbox eg php,.net.

"will put out to gain work", "can make tea", "will dress up"

[Nineblade]

go onto jobserve.com and enter some keywords into the role textbox eg php,.net.

"will put out to gain work", "can make tea", "will dress up"

No John! Never quote stuff from your CV 

[claws]

I agree with John I'm afraid. You don't have to come up with some mountain of legalese, but at the minimum write up a formal specification in terms of what you will and won't provide, and get sign off on it. Make sure that includes documentation and support. If it's a page long, so be it, but it's really important. And if you want higher rates, this kind of thing suddenly makes you look a lot more professional ... and it will save your arse one day

[egg]

When he brings up the new projects and wants to get you started on them tell him you need a higher rate. You've got to be willing to risk losing the job if you want a raise though.

Not good in this economic climate.... :S

[Junta]

I agree with John I'm afraid

This should worry us both Mark

[egg]

I agree with John I'm afraid

This should worry us both Mark

It should worry everyone on the planet!!! lol