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December 2025

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[Finaldeath]

Before they had level 3 teleports they were rubbish offensively (basically, you needed 2 to keep a team moving to the front faster then walking, meaning the team balance went off). I'd certainly agree, they need some better way of helping offence and playing the team game, but it's much harder to do this for a support class (as seen by some of the dubious Scout and Sniper unlocks) then the usual weapon-based classes

[Junta]

In which case I think we need a new WDG server tactic.

Engineer buddy for set-up - maybe a pyro or a scout to see off immediate trouble if an engy is setting up behind the line of attack. Once he's up and running, the buddy can move on.

All we need to do is ask for a buddy - which is doable as we all talk / chat on server 1 don't we

I managed to block some rockets for an engineer on Goldrush... happy to do so again (just shout!)

I note that CruelCow has smote me for this idea! lol

The engy upgrade will be hard.. they've had a buff already with the level 2/3 teleporters and dispensers (and the buff was both needed and well considered).

[CruelCow]

I don't remember doing that

And while they received a big buff already, so has the spy, which has been buffed the most outside of class updates

[mr craig]

People are slating the fact that spies are the counter to uber. You dont hear people say the sniper rifle should be nerferd because a heavy keeps getting headshot. Or the scout is too fast so he should be slowed down. If the spy gets nerferd against engies then the only really other class it kills is snipers. Spies are meant to get behind everyone and cause havoc. Its what makes them unique. No other game has them and now one has been invented and given updates the engie doesnt stand a chance. In my opinion they shouldnt. Like pyros vs soldiers - pyros shouldnt stand a chance. Heavy vs sniper. Heavy shouldnt stand a chance. Each class has an opposite. Its what makes the game so special to play

[Junta]

Very good point. Each class has its nemesis and this is a good thing.

I still think that Engy needs some careful thought over his unlocks... will be tricky

[Carnage]

so what is the spies nemesis, i get killed frequently by spies when i'm a heavy, medic, engy or sniper, all of which are vunerable to spies due to the nature of those classes, is the problem with the spy down to the fact that it has an impact on too many things, such as an uber counter and sapper and disguise and cloak and dead ringer.

I have found spy impossible to use (can't uncloak and kill quick enough as my best of 2 kills shows), but in the right hands it seems to be by far the most devastating class on its own.

[CruelCow]

Well neither demo nor solly have a direct nemesis.

Spies' worst enemies are pyro and scout IMHO.

Edit: And jarate can really make you cry 

[mode_seven]

Well neither demo nor solly have a direct nemesis.

Scout. Without a shadow of a doubt.

[Chaos]

The more I play spy, The more I hate Jarate. Its hard enough for spies as it is without some sniper lobbing piss over you and alerting you to the ENTIRE opposing team. That really annoys me and I think Piss should be removed as its too anti-spy. I think valve have listened to snipers too much on this one and given them exactly what they wanted; to be spy proof. This shouldnt be the way. No class should be THAT hard to kill or target.

Having said that, I still use Jarate as sniper. But mainly for pissing on Dave and John

[Teatime]

Disagree on Jarate. But then again I don't play spy.

As for nemesis: The engy is somewhat special in that regard since the engy class consists of two components, the class itself and the buildings. Since the buildings are very strong the engy consequently has been designed very weak. (And since I've just wrote about it it's hard to imagine how powerful the engy was in TFC compared to the weakling he is now )
So when you consider a nemesis for the engy you usually think of ways to destroying buildings. The engy itself is usually not part of the equation (for good reason).

And in that regard the relationship between spy and engy is special, because the spy has to deal with both components. So IMHO it would be justified to take that special relationship into consideration in a future class update for the engy.

[PapaFade]

Well neither demo nor solly have a direct nemesis.

I see the Heavy as the direct nemisis of the solly. The solly is to slow to evade his fire and struggles to take down a heavy with direct fire without crits.

Spies' worst enemies are pyro and scout IMHO.

Definately the pyro. Screws up cloaks big time. Even the new stuff. The spy hasn't the health to withstand a direct attck for long.

Edit: And jarate can really make you cry 

Especially when it gets in ur eyes

[CruelCow]

Well neither demo nor solly have a direct nemesis.

I see the Heavy as the direct nemisis of the solly. The solly is to slow to evade his fire and struggles to take down a heavy with direct fire without crits.

I disagree. The heavy is a medium to hard fight (depending on cover etc.), but nowhere near as a heavy fighting a sniper or a scout "fighting" a sentry.
Not every class has a direct counter. Pyro is another example, that can have a hard time against classes but is never without a chance.

[Junta]

so what is the spies nemesis, i get killed frequently by spies when i'm a heavy, medic, engy or sniper, all of which are vunerable to spies due to the nature of those classes, is the problem with the spy down to the fact that it has an impact on too many things, such as an uber counter and sapper and disguise and cloak and dead ringer.

Like me, you're probably not playing in the right mindset for spy. Watch the masters and you'll probably see that they move and attack in completely different ways to people like me. Heavies use cover and time their movements, they also get bogged down in firefights and this is alien to spies.

Well neither demo nor solly have a direct nemesis.

Pyros are nasty work for demo men on some maps. I admit that spammy maps are good enough on defence, but once a pyro runs at close range you're literally toasted.

As for soldiers, I get taken down (when I play heavy) by Ringel, Claws, Cheez, Dodgy Emu and Brahms. Soldier has the advantage of range if he uses it wisely. The best soldiers pop in and out of cover to attack the heavy, who can't really afford to do the same thing at close range.

For my opinion on how "nemesis" classes stack up:

Engineer - more vulnerable to demo man or spy
Spy - more vulnerable to pyro (especially after dead ringer)
Heavy - more vulnerable to spy and sniper
Scout - more vulnerable to heavy, pyro and sentry guns
Medic - vulnerable to all classes IMHO (but trades vulnerability for uber charge benefits and team longevity)
Demo - more vulnerable to pyro and spy, soldiers and other demo men
Soldier - more vulnerable to sniper, spy and engineer
Sniper - more vulnerable to spy and other snipers, demo men on some maps
Pyro - more vulnerable to soldiers and heavies, sentry guns and of course, other pyros

[[HAM]Fisted]

I think the whole debate has started purely due to the skill of the WDG server spies. Engies still help massivly but are also very fustraiting because in wdg you instantly have a massive target painted on the sentry gun. In truth the sentry gun is not really the defense but it takes the atention away from your team mates allowing them to kill without return fire. The engie can only be treated as a support class and expecting a sentry to stay up for long is big mistake.

The spies seem to be extra effective because the engie is usually exposed because his team mates are focused on something else so in reality if you wish to keep your teams engie alive and its proberbly a good thing to do so (dispensers, teleports) leave a pyro close to him focusing on defending the engie. Alot of pyros get bored real quick and run off which is why the engie is usually screwed but when you have a pyro you laugh at how cruelcow's dead ringer fails epicly!

I am not the best engie but from my time as one i think he is a very strong class. When you consider the teleport and the dispenser you can see how valuable he is to the other classes. the teleport literally changes the dynamic of a fight. like at Badwater, an offensive teleport allows constant pressure to be applied by your heavies who without it would have to take a long walk.

I guess the engie in some cases is alot like the medic in that he is a class where if you want lots of kills and expect your stuff to last forever, you should have picked soldier!

[Hzza]

Not playing either class I don't really have any input into this thread other then agreeing with mode and cruel that scouts are good counters to demomen and spies.

Ask Cruel about my bat, srsly.

Also, snipers can be a good counter to pyros: their odd shaped heads make for easy targets I always find.

Just wanted to inflate my post count throw that in there.