**DISCLAIMERS**
I just wanted to give my insight into the events that occurred at the beginning of the week and to try and clear the air.
If you post in this topic, please be respectful and think carefully before replying. I know I thought a lot before making this post.
Also remember that these are my opinions/reflections/thoughts on what happened - I'm not saying that my interpretations are correct and it's more than possible that my interpretations of what happened aren't factually accurate.
I'm also sorry that I've mentioned people by name - but since this was an event involving many specific people, making a more general post didn't seem like it would have the desired effect and I have had tried to address the concerns of individuals from the various posts / sentiments etc.
**END OF DISCLAIMERS**
First of all, this is a discussion forum for a gaming clan / community and generally we try to avoid 'serious' discussions such as religion, politics etc. and it turns out homeopathy is now going to be added to the list!
HeX was merely trying to offer some helpful advice to Hzza in the thread, and even made the disclaimer that they should check it's ok before taking it. She wasn't trying to start a discussion on the validity of homeopathy medicine, she merely stated her recommendation/opinion to be helpful. It was something she felt helped her (placebo effect or otherwise) and so she was trying to pass on advice. The responses that she got to her opinion were, quite frankly, very dismissive of her opinion and I thought quite rude.
Quite understandably, her response to this was to ask people not to be derogatory about other people's opinions (regardless of whether or not it was her own and/or whether or not it is factually correct). This wasn't to say 'don't express your opinion because it is opposing to mine' it was to say 'express your opinion in a constructive (and not dismissive/rude) way'. We are a community of all sorts of people from lots of different backgrounds etc. and we have to be tolerant of other people, even if their opinions differ from ours.
CV and Dodgy's response to this was, again, I thought quite dismissive. Stating 'facts' (regardless of how true or not they are) in a discussion of opinions is only going to antagonise the situation and turn it into an argument if you're not willing to appreciate other people's beliefs and opinions, even if you don't share them. So what if they're not 'clinically proven' - if they helped her out then what's the problem. I'm sure Hzza is sensible enough to form his own opinion and HeX even said to make sure before taking them.
HeX repeated her fairly calm request as it had been ignored the first time and it was ignored again with, what I felt, was another dismissive comment. Unfortunately, Papafade stepped in with more 'facts' and his opinion (again, I don't feel his opinion was expressed in a constructive way - only adding fuel to the fire but he was naturally going to be defensive and stand up for his wife and the opinion on homepathic medicine which they share so it's not difficult to see why) while at the same time trying to deal with the dismissive remarks made by the others and this probably gave the wrong impression. His remark of 'I suggest you think twice before posting on this subject again Captain Valentine.' was not to say that his opinion or 'facts' weren't valid - just that he shouldn't post in the thread if he is going to be rude/dismissive of other people's opinions.
The conversation then got back on track briefly with sensible comments/points from Chaos (I had to bite my lip to say that
) and Berath. CV responded by again trying to force the same 'fact' home without adding anything further to the discussion.
Papafade/HeX did here exactly what I would have done in the situation, which was to remove the off-topic parts of the conversation as it had turned from a discussion about Hzza's family to an argument about homeopathic medicine. In hindsight, maybe HeX's comment about the tablets should have been edited out as well (so as not to appear as though other people's opinions didn't matter which, surprisingly to me, is what most people thought), but it probably didn't cross their minds. They were NOT trying to suppress other people's opinions, they were suppressing the way in which they were presented (the 2 warnings for which had been ignored). I don't mind if a thread goes off-topic, but not when people are being rude/dismissive of other people's opinions and it turns into a heated argument. Our forums isn't the place for that and we have removed posts/topics for this very reason before to 'keep the peace'. If CV had suggested/asked that HeX removed her comment as well so as not to make the removal of the posts one-sided instead of labelling it 'nonsense' then it's much more likely that his request would have been listened to and he would have received a different response.
It's not about what you say, it's about how you say it. We can all appreciate that intentions and emotion doesn't travel well when written on the internet - so you have to be doubly careful not to jump to conclusions. In this particular case - there were a lot of misunderstandings and mixed messages from multiple peoples' posts.
Following the removal of the discussion, I still feel that this misunderstanding between Dave's opinions on homeopathic medicine, defending his wife in an argument (which is natural to do) and his actions trying to keep peace on the forums (warning CV twice that if he couldn't make a constructive comment he would be banned) were perhaps not made distinctly clear. Had I of been around when this was actually happening, I would have had a similar response, and I'm not married to HeX (or Dave!) because I thought that people were being rude and the discussion had turned into a heated argument.
CVs stubborness by this point (saying "There's a difference between opinion and fact" three times?) only served to anger the situation and didn't add anything to the conversation/discussion.
If we all accepted everything that we were told was 'fact' then we would have missed out on a huge body of scientific research and discovery. Also (because I'm sure your attention spans are waning):
http://top-10-list.org/2009/05/04/top-10-most-common-facts-debunked-myths/I believe that CV was banned for the following:
- Dismissing the opinions and views of others, this is something that I felt - and many others did as well
- Lack of respect for admins and their instructions (not because his opinion was invalid and HeX's was, just that it was presented in an obtuse and dismissive way)
This should have been discussed with CV privately and not on the forums, but he showed a repeated lack of respect towards moderators/admins of the community and forums (again...NOT because of his opinions or the fact they differed to HeX/Fade's) and deliberately ignored a warning that he would be banned and I don't know of any forum where that wouldn't be punished.
Any opinions posted after this (e.g. Dibble, DodgyEmu) were not related to the original discussion on homeopathic medicine and instead against the decision made by Papafade. These opinions should have been taken up with him directly, the forums are NOT the place for that kind of discussion as it only concerns those involved (e.g. the leadership/admin team) to resolve. That's not to say they weren't valid, just that for the sake of sanity on the forums it wasn't the right place for them. I think that's an important distinction.
Unfortunately, while raising the discussion regarding the validity of the ban may have been well-placed and appropriate, the timing and location of it was not. Burnalot, Discordance, TheBeau, Cruelcow, Abda, Chaos, Claws all piped in with comments regarding the ban and the actions taken by admins after an attempt had been made to get a valid discussion back on track with a new thread.
We don't force you to come to the forums, you are more than welcome to not visit it if you are unhappy. There are still plenty of other people that visit the forums regularly and enjoy it here that if you personally don't like it, then you can leave. This is a general comment and not directed at anyone in particular, but I/we would rather have fewer members that can abide by our rules and are constructive members of the community than to generally allow people to run amok on our forums and servers.
I am very proud of the way that r007, Berath, Mr Chug, TommytheCat (again, lip biting
) and others attempted to keep the discussion thread about homeopathic medicine on track and raise concerns about the ban in an appropriate manner. I am also proud of anyone that had the sense to put forward opinions without dismissing the views of others and kept out of commenting on the decision made - that's not to say I'm disappointed in those that did as obviously you felt strongly about it - but the forums shouldn't have been the place for this discussion and the only reason I'm posting all of this publicly is as it has become a public matter.
My honest opinion regarding the ban is that it is valid for the reasons I gave above - being dismissive/rude and posting in a thread against the direction of an admin when told that it would result in a ban. The fact of the matter is that CV didn't know when to back down and Papafade, quite rightly, didn't want to be disrespected like that. Is that an abuse of power? If the ban was because HeX's opinion differed to CV's, then almost definitely - I appreciate that. The reality is though that the whole event shouldn't have gotten to the stage that it did and that many mistakes have been made. For this reason I intend to lift CVs ban on the forums/server. This is not to go against HeX/Dave's decision, as the reason for the ban is valid (if maybe a bit excessive) but because the whole situation got out of control and tempers were flared. Again - the use of power wasn't because of differing opinions, but I appreciate that it may have appeared like that to many people.
I also appreciate, through a large number of discussions with various people where the attitudes / decisions made by admins and the leaders in WDG has come under some disagreement - this seems to have come partly from some of the BiG guys that have left WDG (some of which have been involved in this event - and that's by no means anything against BiG clan or it's members, before I get in trouble for that!). I was incredibly disappointed to hear that some of them were 'trying to get banned' or that they weren't 'surprised' that this would happen - quite frankly I'm a little upset and disappointed by that. Every decision that we make we try to do for the good of the clan and its community and we would never deliberately do anything to jeopardise it but we do ask that you show a little respect for the clan that gave you a server to play on, a mumble to use, that supported you in your foray into competitive gaming (maybe not to the extent you would have liked but I think that is another misunderstanding) and introduced you to like-minded people. Even if you don't respect the leaders or the decisions made - some of the animosity that seems to exist only serves to damage the clan and the rest of the community, which isn't really fair.
I appreciate that sometimes the leaders make decisions that may seem 'unfair' or that may appear to be an abuse of power. I really don't see it as going as far as that, in fact, it doesn't go very far at all - the leaders, past, present and future, have put in substantial amounts of time and effort into the forming of an incredibly strong community based around Team Fortress 2. We don't get paid for it, in fact - most of the time we get very little recognition at all and it's a pretty thankless task. "That's why being an admin is a shit job nobody wants." Do you know what? That's ok. We wouldn't have been, or still be doing it if we didn't want to or care about this community. Every single one of us should be applauding/thanking John and Dave (and even Mass) for the community they have created as without it/them - many of us wouldn't have met, become friends, had great games together (TF2 or otherwise), gone to LAN events together, formed teams etc.
As for fairness (and I know this isn't going to sit well with some people, as it hasn't in previous discussions), why should we be fair? The leaders built up this great community - one of the strongest communities I have ever had the pleasure of being part of and I have made a great deal of friends as a result (there is not a single person in the clan or community that I don't have time for) and we're not going to sit by and let a small minority ruin it for everyone else. So if sometimes we're a little heavy on the banhammer on the server - it's not because we just want to abuse our power, it's because we're not going to let some little mouthy shit ruin our fun on the server by spamming voice chat or not following the rules that are clearly laid out when you join the server. Again - there are plenty of other people who are capable of coming on the server and being polite and abiding by our rules (which aren't that unreasonable) that we're going to run out of players. Is that the right attitude to have? Probably not, but experience has generally shown there are a lot of griefers, trolls, angry little kids who don't deserve to have anything to do with this community.
And do you know what? I'd hope you think the leaders and admins do a pretty good job of building and maintaining this community but sometimes we do get it wrong. That's why we're a 'leadership team' and we have an 'admin team' to help keep us all on the straight narrow. Like I have said earlier, have always said, and will continue to say - if you have an issue with a decision taken by an admin or leader - take it up them directly. In public, on the forums and on the servers - show them some respect though, they/we deserve it. Why? Just look around - look down your steam friends list, look at your most visited websites, look at all the money you've spent on games based on crappy recommendations in the 'other games' board. That's why. Remember, respect works both ways. R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Let's have no more lasting 'bad-blood' between the leaders/members/community/otherwise.
I know I have named a lot of names in this post, those that I have named - please don't take it personally. Every name I have listed I still consider to be my friend and wish to continue to play games with long into the future, but the actions/events of earlier on this week were deplorable and should never have happened and I will be first to admit that mistakes have been made on multiple sides.
As for the fallout, I was forced to close the forums - a drastic course of action I don't think has ever been taken. As I said in my post following the reinstatement of the forums, I am sorry if anyone felt that this was a bad decision but I felt giving people some time to relax and think before commenting on it further was a good idea. Plus, kittens are cute.
Papafade has stepped down from the leadership and has left the clan entirely. He wished to pass on that anyone who wants to get in touch or play some games is welcome to drop him a message. Lexi is currently deciding whether or not she would like to stay in the clan. We owe them both a great debt for their service to the clan and I wish them both very well in whatever it is they do next!
We also lost another founding member of the clan with Junta deciding to leave (again - lightweight ). I don't blame him and entirely understand his reasons for leaving. John is probably one of my oldest gaming friends and I respect him so much - he has taught me that celebrity lookie-likies are a real condition and that it is actually possible to drink sol if you have a pair of bollocks
A (=WDG=) without Ripsaw is barely a (=WDG=) at all - one of the longest members and most hilariously funny men I have ever had the pleasure of gaming with and meeting. His laugh will ring in my ears for a long time yet! I hope to see him again in the future for a beer or two as meeting him at i43 was not nearly enough.
Paul aka Power also decided to leave, another sad loss to the clan.
Let us also not forget Ganymedes who left after another disagreement with those in BiG that left the clan a few months ago.
Some forum members (Claws, Greg & Dibble) decided that they no longer wished to visit these forums and/or removed their accounts. Two ex-clan members and long standing regulars.
All of these people, I completely empathise with why they left. A (=WDG=) where events like what happened earlier in the week is barely a WDG at all and these people no longer felt like they belonged here. Heck - you should only have to look at the name of the clan to figure out why we all came here. Who Dares... Grins.
It has been a sad period for the clan with much discontent (e.g. many people leaving, uncertainties over the future of the clan). Before Papafade's departure, it was agreed among the leaders and a vote with the clan members that the clan would become more of a 'gaming community' as opposed to a 'tf2 clan' with less of a focus on Team Fortress 2 as we agreed that the game has become tiring for many. I intend to carry on with this proposal so expect to see some changes to that effect soon. We also made changes to the TF2 server to try and breathe some life into it (no crits vote, nominations of non-rotation maps).
As for my position within the clan, this and the BiG departure (I was expecting one or two to leave, not the 6/7 that did and not under the circumstances in which they left) have left me feeling considerably disheartened and are almost certainly some of the lowest points of my time in the clan. I did think about leaving as I was terribly disappointed with what happened, but I remembered all of the good that is still in the clan and this community and wouldn't want to see it fall so I will be sticking around for the foreseeable future.
As for other changes, I posted a similar version of this thread in the members section of the forums (although I always intended to make it publicly available as stated in the forum reinstatement thread) and some excellent suggestions came about:
- With regards to the move to a 'gaming community' clan - we would love to hear the communities thoughts/suggestions on how to do this - expect another thread to appear to discuss this soon
- We will make the server bans section of the forums public, rather than for members only. This will allow everyone to see who was banned and the reason for the ban for the sake of 'transparency'
- We will try to resurrect the 'GWIWPTPWM' (games wot I want people to play with me) thread more regularly to make it easier for people to find games etc.
- We are going to make the mumble server details available publicly so that more people can benefit/use it when playing games together
(All of these changes are something I will 'get around to' when the dust has settled a bit and I have some free time - so expect gradual implementation)
I swear to god that if ANYONE says 'tl;dr' I am going to find them and punch them in the face. You have been warned!!!!
Total Members: 311
